Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby ajcadoo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:27 pm

Hi John,

I was the editor handling the original UR you have quoted. The location of the UR indicated it was at the intersection of S Bonnie Brae & 7th St. The original reporter was traveling northbound on Bonnie Brae and reported the 'straight' turn as being difficult at 7th St. This intersection is crossing two lanes of traffic, which is why I responded the way I did. However, upon closer examination and talking to other editors, it is probable the reporter was complaining about the left turn onto Wilshire, an 1/8 of a mile north of the report. As such, there should have been more due diligence on my end with keeping the report open.

As other editors have pointed out, after a UR is closed, you cannot reply to it via the client app, however you can use the online Waze Map Editor to comment.

Also, Waze map editors operate on a volunteer, hyperlocal basis. We operate around the areas we drive, so the majority of editors in LA are Wazers just like you and are routed through the difficult turns just like you. We aren't across the country or in a different country entirely. We are here in LA, waiting for a hole to open up on Sunset as Waze requested. So we understand each and every Difficult report.

Finally, we take Difficult turns seriously. The vast majority of turns reported as difficult are reviewed by senior editors and we try our best with implementing solutions. Remember, Waze originally released the "Difficult Turns" feature for Los Angeles due to our unique traffic situation. So for turns onto large roads like Wilshire or Santa Monica Blvd, the feature has been a great addition. But it is also good to know that there are hundreds of prospective turns queuing up for implementation, and it takes time to review each one. The feature is still in its infancy but we are slowly beginning to rollout the feature across Los Angeles.

Hopefully this and the other responses in this thread has helped ease your understanding of the situation. Please feel free to comment back with additional insight!
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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby AlObaili » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:37 am

TSD66 wrote:but to answer you have to use the app. If there is any comment to one of your reports you will see a note right below your user name, click that and then go to your inbox. There you can read the comment and you can answer even to a closed report.


From my experience it is not possible to comment on a closed report using Waze app. The only way I know to comment on a closed report is by using WME.

Can you please confirm if it's possible and how?

The last time I faced this issue was before yesterday when an editor closed my report and left a comment. I received a message in my inbox in Waze app with his comment but there was no field to reply.
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Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby BlackAMG55 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:01 am

I get an email with a comment in it with a link. For example, see below.

However, clicking on the link does NOT allow you to make a comment, and I've scrolled the ENTIRE LENGTH of Bonnie Brae and don't see the comment.

Clicking on the link in the email (quoted EXACTLY except for the names, below) SHOULD take you to the comment, or fairly close to it, so you can make a reply.

What's happening now is that these issues will get one reply - from an editor, and the conversation will then shut down. So, you think you're doing well, but people may be VERY frustrated.

Speaking of which, this particular issue has several of us VERY frustrated (as you can tell by the unnamed commenter who used the word 'fudge' in their comment).

From personal experience, whoever is making these decisions is missing the point.

You know how you get through a "difficult" intersection in LA traffic? You pull out and hope to hell you don't get hit. Maybe you get through, maybe you don't. On the Waze app, it looks to an editor sitting at home, like you didn't wait that long. However, in practice your nuts have shrunken up to the size of raisins and you're in fear for your life.

This isn't just academic, I drive a sports car and it's not very high, so if there are cars parked, I cannot see over them - at all.

Does Waze track accident statistics along with the 'time to get through the intersection' statistics? As SO many people have complained about it, I believe this might be actionable. (which means, if Waze sends me this way and I get T-boned, I will certainly consult with a lawyer if I survive - which sounds like a threat and it's not (really), but is certainly a possibility).

I already put in a request to have a setting for 'don't turn left without a light' and other settings, but I don't expect this to happen quickly.

If people say it's difficult - especially during rush hour - there's more to the story than how quickly they got across. Waze frustrates me so much when it does this, and while talking to people, I know many that have given up on it, for just this reason.

Also, I was driving a rental van recently and it sent me down side streets. Do you know how large a rental van is in poor neighborhoods in LA? Wide enough to knock mirrors off. I got through but it was dicey, and I had to go over the sidewalk in a couple of areas.

I hope I've created some understanding.

== John ==

Hi BlackAMG55,

There's a new comment on a map issue you are following from 03.08.2017 on S Bonnie Brae St, Los Angeles - “You guys need to tell people when there is no light or no stop sign and people have to cross 10,000 fucking lanes of traffic”. [JDG: NOT MY COMMENT but I thought it was right on]

xxxxxxeditor on 03.24.2017 03:59 PM:

Thanks for reporting! A few notes: 1) It appears you were able to perform the turn as directed by Waze. The turn is also marked as legal. 2) The turn was across two lanes of traffic (one in each direction). As such, we do not classify this as a difficult turn. 3) If you ever feel as though a turn is too difficult, you can always turn right and have Waze re-route. We evaluate all reports of difficult intersections, but this particular intersection does not qualify for an adjustment. Thank you for reporting!

See this issue in the Waze map editor https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... 13&env=usa
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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:26 pm

Unfortunately, the "difficult turn" feature as implemented cannot really help us as much as we'd like.

In theory, drivers who for whatever reason feel risk averse should be able to enable the feature and Waze will avoid risky situations. As another poster commented, perhaps it is a poor driver, but at least one who is sufficiently self-aware to request easier routes. Or it may be someone driving an unfamiliar car, or a visitor unused to local driving customs, or someone who has just had a traumatic experience, or an older person whose reaction times may be slower.

Because the "difficult turns" feature simply adds a blanket penalty regardless of traffic conditions, our Waze culture tells us that we generally shouldn't use it if a given turn is perfectly safe at some other time of day. We are trained not to get in the way of Waze working just as well in the middle of the night as it does during rush hour.

Only if the visibility and number of lanes suggest a difficult location even in the middle of the night with no traffic -- only then do we consider applying the difficult-turn feature. But this means that, as long as a maneuver would not be difficult or dangerous in the absence of traffic, Waze may still happily route peak-traffic drivers who requested a risk-averse route dead into it.

Given these circumstances I don't see how the difficult-turn feature will make a major difference for most drivers or situations.

Ideally, Waze would refine the behavior of "difficult turn" to adjust the routing penalty dynamically based on time-of-day and day-of-week historic traffic data for the site. This would make the feature far, far more useful.

Please see a relevant thread regarding dangerous intersections, with many links to YouTube videos of one particular site in Silicon Valley.
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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby TSD66 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:05 am

Just for the general understanding... we're talking about that small intersection that is linked within the quoted section of your posting, John?

I think no matter what the traffic situation there is at any given moment it shouldn't be a problem for any average skilled driver to make a left turn there within a reasonable time (otherwise Waze probably wouldn't have suggested that route), as pointed out already this doesn't classify as a difficult turn at all.

I have to admit, I've never been to LA. All I know about driving in major US cities is from San Francisco, San Jose and Seattle although that's no match to rush hours in Berlin, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam or London, not to speak about the rather chaotic traffic in some East and South European capitals like Bucharest, Athens or Rome.
But regardless of what place, any option like "avoid left turns on intersections without traffic lights or stop signs" doesn't sound like a good idea (e. g. how would you know the lights are working?), this is more like "get back to driving school or better take the bus", don't you agree?

Okay, regarding the topic of "following up on map issues" - depending on your settings you might get comments and answers to your own reports by email, but to answer you have to use the app. If there is any comment to one of your reports you will see a note right below your user name, click that and then go to your inbox. There you can read the comment and you can answer even to a closed report. Within the WME your answer then would appear as sent by the "reporter" instead of showing your username, just to protect your privacy. This applies for the vast majority of Waze users who never use the forum or the WME.
Of course you could answer directly from within the WME, too, then your answer would include your username so other editors would be able to take further communication into PMs.

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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby TSD66 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:03 am

AlObaili wrote:From my experience it is not possible to comment on a closed report using Waze app. The only way I know to comment on a closed report is by using WME.

Can you please confirm if it's possible and how?

The last time I faced this issue was before yesterday when an editor closed my report and left a comment. I received a message in my inbox in Waze app with his comment but there was no field to reply.

I remember I've read that within the wiki as part of the "UR communication etiquette", to leave reports open, thus giving reporters the chance to answer. But then I had three or four "thank you" responses even on solved issues/closed reports last year, usually that was the point when I answered again with an invitation to become a part of the editing community.
Will test that out with another local editor here, maybe things have changed (again?) or it depends on OS/app version?
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Re: Cannot follow up on map issues - underreporting problem

Postby turbomkt » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:54 pm

BlackAMG55 wrote:I get an email with a comment in it with a link. For example, see below.

However, clicking on the link does NOT allow you to make a comment, and I've scrolled the ENTIRE LENGTH of Bonnie Brae and don't see the comment.

Clicking on the link in the email (quoted EXACTLY except for the names, below) SHOULD take you to the comment, or fairly close to it, so you can make a reply.

What's happening now is that these issues will get one reply - from an editor, and the conversation will then shut down. So, you think you're doing well, but people may be VERY frustrated.


John,
Did you go into the settings in WME and set Waze to show closed reports?

[ img ]


As for some of your other comments, a few have been addressed already. In my opinion, this report was closed prematurely and without due diligence in finding out the issue. I'm waiting for confirmation, but I think your comment providing commentary and not working to identify the actual issue was a distraction and the editor thought you were the original reporter.

As for your comments...they are useful to generate discussion. They are not as useful in random reports in WME. This forum is the right place to have the discussion. There are others that are also valid, and I invite you to join us. Send a pm to tonestertm with your e-mail address and he can add you to the SoCal Google+ page. That's the right venue to discuss Difficult Turns and how they are implemented specifically within SoCal.

BlackAMG55 wrote:
This isn't just academic, I drive a sports car and it's not very high, so if there are cars parked, I cannot see over them - at all.
....
Also, I was driving a rental van recently and it sent me down side streets. Do you know how large a rental van is in poor neighborhoods in LA? Wide enough to knock mirrors off. I got through but it was dicey, and I had to go over the sidewalk in a couple of areas.


Waze does not know what kind of car anyone drives. It doesn't know if an intersection's sight line is blocked by parked cars, shrubs, or a building. It also doesn't know how wide a street is. I don't know of any navigation app that does any of that.


BlackAMG55 wrote:I already put in a request to have a setting for 'don't turn left without a light' and other settings, but I don't expect this to happen quickly.


I've already commented to you on this in a report. Waze doesn't know if an intersection has a light or not. In all honesty, I doubt this would ever get implemented.
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