Road Closures

Moderators: MapSir, ottonomy, xanderb

Road Closures

Postby HavanaDay » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 pm

As I get more busy here at work I have been trying to get more organized with my Waze work. I have edited quite a few long term road closures in the state and would like to set up a list for the road closures so that everyone in the state can see and edit as needed.

I believe I have three options:

1) NC State to do list in the wiki - Might be an option but the US wiki pages by state probably needs to be reorganized to the new structure.

2) A common post here in the North Carolina State Topics

3) A post here linking to the Google Doc

What do you all think would work best for the community?
HavanaDay
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:08 pm
Location: Midland, NC
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 212 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby Riamus » Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 am

I was thinking more about this and other instructions for temporary closures and I'm wondering if there may be a better option. Right now, it's suggested to use CONST ZN on the road name for temporary construction closures. Why not do the same thing for permanent closures? "Street Name CLOSED" or "Street Name INTERSECTION CLOSED" or something. Just add a segment at the end right before the closure and change the name to say that. Editors *should* be looking at the street names for clues like that anyhow if we're using CONST ZN, so it should prevent an editor for "fixing" the street. I'm not really sure how things appear from the client side when a road has that as nothing around me appears to use CONST ZN for me to test, but maybe it will show it well enough to also prevent anyone from submitting an error report? Just thinking that something like that would fit with other procedures and should work well. That or have a road closed icon that you can place at the end of a segment with notes on it to show if it's permanent or temporary and expected time to re-open and perhaps even a link to a site/page that shows details about the closure. Then it would be very clear everywhere that it's closed. That option means an update to the software, but the first can be done already. Just some additional thoughts on that.
Riamus
 
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:34 pm
Location: Summerfield, NC
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby AnotherHiggins » Wed May 15, 2013 10:50 pm

Regarding how it displays in the client, this is from the release notes for v3.6 (Android as well as iPhone):
"✓ Reduced map clutter by showing only relevant road names"

Actually I haven't tested this since the release of 3.6. I'll create a couple of test roads in a secluded area and see how they look in the client. I suspect it will be less noticeable than what I've seen in previous versions, but it can't hurt to check.

BTW, this is a technique I picked up from someone else.... FrisbeeDog, I think. The first time I saw it was actually in the client in a location where he had done this.

Riamus wrote:I'll get used to the practices used here and I'm not trying to be a pain. Just commenting and trying to get a good feel for how to do things.


No worries, and no offense taken here. Ideas should be challenged. If they stand up to the challenge they should be kept, otherwise they should be discarded. Repeat periodically.
AnotherHiggins
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:53 am
Location: NC
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby Riamus » Wed May 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Ok, I looked at it in the Live Map, so it may just be worse displaying there. In the Live Map, it doesn't look like just a label, but instead looks like a misplaced segment of road with a label down the middle (not end to end). As far as not showing unless driving slowly, I'm assuming that is based on the assumption that the user has the default auto-zoom set up? Or is it not possible to stay zoomed in when driving? I haven't actually changed that setting, so I don't know. When navigating, I like the auto-zoom method, but it doesn't do anything when you're just displaying the map. In those cases, I'd have to zoom in because the map just shows way too much around me unless I happen to be on a highway driving fast. I can basically see almost half way across a medium sized town by default when not navigating. Anyhow, I see where you're coming from if it's not normally visible while driving. And I understand the interest in preventing people from reporting it as an error from the client. I hadn't considered that aspect of it. I do still think we need a notes feature. Maybe it can be made visible everywhere instead of only in the editor, but if so then it should be optional.

Regarding turns, your example with GPS manufacturers is what I mentioned about an error in the mapping. An error is far different legally than a purposeful decision to tell people to take an illegal turn. I'm not a lawyer either, but I really think that's a dangerous slope to be on. And it's been clearly shown in courts at least in the US (and I think also in Europe) that the EULA is a flimsy document and not entirely binding. I would be very surprised if a lawyer didn't win a case where someone was killed or got into an accident because Waze purposefully routed someone illegally. Maybe I'm wrong. It is good to know that it is rare, but I'm wondering how rare it is. The link I gave has you going a few miles around to get to a house on the opposite side of the closed intersection. If you asked for a route from one side to the other, I wonder if there are enough penalty points placed on the turn restriction to prevent Waze from trying to route through the closure instead of sending you a few miles out of your way. Maybe I'll try that one of these days and see what happens. And there are likely many roads in the country where you might have to drive 10 or 20 miles before finding a way to get to the other side of the closure. The penalty would have to be really high. Maybe it is. Oh well, Waze can handle whatever may come from that decision. As long as it doesn't result in many lawsuits that end up causing Waze to go away, then it really doesn't affect me any. It was just a concern.

I'll get used to the practices used here and I'm not trying to be a pain. Just commenting and trying to get a good feel for how to do things.
Riamus
 
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:34 pm
Location: Summerfield, NC
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby AnotherHiggins » Wed May 15, 2013 6:39 pm

I'm pretty sure that the EULA indemnifies Waze if drivers fail to follow road signs and local laws. Every year that are stories of people who drive into lakes, or oceans, or off of bridges, etc. because their GPS said to. I'm not aware of any GPS manufacturers going out of business due to the crippling law suits.

But IANAL, so what do I know?

For Waze to route through a turn restriction is fairly rare, and often happens if there are errors nearby that prevent Waze from finding another route. But as I said, there is a penalty system in place and if routing through a restricted turn has fewer penalties than other routes, Waze will route right on through that restricted turn. In these cases, a higher-level editor can lock segment(s) at that node, which increases the penalty for turning there.

As for the additional segment I placed in the second example, I deliberately chose to make is a "street" rather than railroad specifically so it would be visible to drivers as well as editors. It won't show up on the client unless you are driving slowly or very nearby. And it doesn't look that strange on the client - it's not like it's a blinking neon sign that says "this is a fake street!" - it just looks like an informational note. One that's in all caps going perpendicularly across the road.

Waze is made for drivers and I try to keep in mind how things will look in the client. Yes, this is a bit of a kludge as there isn't actually a road there, but it can be very effective and look decent to the end user.



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
AnotherHiggins
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:53 am
Location: NC
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby HavanaDay » Wed May 15, 2013 6:27 pm

I am making an assumption that you are talking about permanent road closures that don't quite match with the aerials and the gps tracks that could contain some old data depending on the road.

If that is the case, I would tend to agree with you about using a segment type that isn't showing on the map. But, that isn't foolproof as well.

Now if you are talking about short term road closures then I think a type that will show up on the map could do two things. 1) Allow a end user to report an update request if the road is opened earlier (via the segment marked closed til XX/XX/XX) or 2) On the off chance that a road is going to be closed longer report that via an update request. If the road is separated but not marked (even if marked), there is a chance that a user may report a wrong driving directions uselessly.

Hopefully, down the road (near future would be nice) we can close roads as editors for specific lengths of times which, again, hopefully will eliminate these types of needs. This will not solve the permanently closed roads issue though so this will probably need further tweaking.

As an example:
This intersection here.

There is same major reconfiguration going on. I have over the past few months got conflicting info about which ramps are closed now and which are opened. As a matter of fact I received UR's on two separate days (spread apart by a couple days). One said new ramp is open, then a few days later got one that said ramp is not open yet. Conflicting info to say the least and the dot website hasn't been too helpful with it as well.
HavanaDay
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:08 pm
Location: Midland, NC
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 212 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby Riamus » Wed May 15, 2013 6:05 pm

I do understand the reasoning, but using a road segment that is visible in the client seems wrong to me. From reading the forums, railroad segments seem to be recommended for this because they don't currently show on the client. Of course, the recommendation apperas to also say not to do this often or to keep track of everywhere you did it so that you can remove or change them if railroads start appearing in the client in the future. And I added my thoughts on what I think would be better (a feature visible only in the editor specifically designed for leaving notes on the map for other editors). But that would mean a change versus just using railroads, which can be done already.
Riamus
 
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:34 pm
Location: Summerfield, NC
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby HavanaDay » Wed May 15, 2013 5:57 pm

I was looking at your example with the additional road saying it's permanently closed. I'm not really sure I'd agree with that.


Speaking for myself I can see why he did that. The aerials show the road connected but it isn't connected now. He disconnects it but leaves no trace of why the road is disconnected. For some reason or another a MP or UR gets tagged at the intersection. New editor (or unfamiliar editor) comes by sees the aerial and say oh this must be connected and proceeds to connect the roads erroneously. The tag should help out with keeping this from happening. It should a prompt to email the editor of the segment at the very least otherwise you just aren't doing your job correctly.

Now the road ranks may not necessitate this exactly anymore. Just lock it down at the highest level you can get access to. Still, as a level 5 If I had an UR stating turn allowed here an old MP rear its ugly head for some reason. Looking at everything I might be tempted to connect the roads. Now if I recognized the editor of the segment or such it probably would prompt me to send a quick PM to him about it.
HavanaDay
Country Manager
Country Manager
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:08 pm
Location: Midland, NC
Has thanked: 215 times
Been thanked: 212 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby Riamus » Tue May 14, 2013 9:51 pm

I'm starting around the area ranging from Kernersville though Stokesdale and up past Summerfield. I'll probably expand some as I get more used to editing. The first things I've been working on are getting gas stations placed correctly as none of them in my area seem to have been set up and are mostly off on the center of a road up to half a mile away. I guess that's probably not uncommon in an area with few people who use Waze.

I've been doing a lot of GIS work lately where I work, so a lot of this is very similar to what I do, though I work with far more layers and break down the look of them a lot more than what we see here. I find it interesting to do, so I'm looking forward to seeing what I might be able to help with here. I've corrected the closed road so it is disconnected. If you'd like to take a look, here is the permalink: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=10&la ... s=68149491

I'm concerned about the idea of routing through invalid turns. Having it specifically programmed to do that is a guaranteed way to eventually be sued and lose. What happens when someone using Waze follows the directions to take an illegal turn and gets into an accident, possibly killing someone? It is one thing if it was an error on the map. It's something entirely different when it's programmed to route you through illegal turns just to save a little time. All it takes is a lawyer to realize what Waze does and Waze will be in trouble quickly. Also, even if Waze didn't have to worry about being liable for providing potentially dangerous routing, you are going to potentially waste a lot of someone's time who is unwilling to break the law. If you're routed one way to supposedly save a lot of time only to find that you can't legally go that way and if you aren't willing to break the law then depending on the routing, you may have to turn around and drive a long way to get around onto another route. So not only are you risking lawsuits and causing accidents, but you are also potentially adding a lot of time to some people's routes instead of saving them time. It's one thing to route someone through a parking lot to avoid slow traffic (that isn't really legal in the US, but it's rarely enforced) and something else to suggest clearly illegal turns.

I was looking at your example with the additional road saying it's permanently closed. I'm not really sure I'd agree with that. I know I'm new here, but that just seems like a bad option to stick a fake road that would be visible on the map just to say the other road is closed. I saw other posts suggesting using non-displaying features such as railroads if notes are needed. That would at least be a better option, I'd think. Though personally I think Waze should create a layer that is non-displaying everywhere except WME (an editor's note layer) that can be used for adding notes that don't display on any other map - client or web. Through my work with GIS, that wouldn't be all that hard to set up and would solve a lot of communication problems without making fake roads or other features in order to make notes on the map. I'm not trying to sound like I am criticizing it. I'm just trying to get a feel for what is considered the right way of doing things here.

Thanks for the comments and help. I look forward to helping out.
Riamus
 
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:34 pm
Location: Summerfield, NC
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 235 times

Re: Road Closures

Postby AnotherHiggins » Tue May 14, 2013 5:39 pm

Hi there, Riamus. Welcome to the wild world of Waze editing! Out of curiosity, what area are you editing in?

Riamus wrote:What is the best way to close an intersection where the intersection is still there, but the road is blocked off as a permanent closure?

For a permanent closure, the segments should definitely be disconnected in the Waze Map Editor (WME).

Waze uses "penalties" to decide which route to take. A turn restriction is considered a penalty so Waze prefers not to route that way, but depending on other road conditions Waze may still tell someone to turn there.

If the segments are not attached, that route is not even available to Waze.

As far as it looking funny on the client (phone app), if you get the segments close enough together then it shouldn't be noticeable.

Here's a page on the wiki that goes into more detail about how Waze calculates routes:

Riamus wrote:...I would be interested in some place we can mark permanent and long term closures for the state so we can limit the number of people "fixing" the closure.... Along the same lines, what is the best policy for temporary road closures that are still going to last for months due to construction? I saw an old post saying not to do anything because it took so long to update the maps and it would be open by the time the map was updated, but from what it looks like now, map updates are daily in the US so that wouldn't apply anymore.

That's what we're discussing in this thread - Roads & bridges that are closed due to construction and how to share that information with one another. You said you saw an "old post," so I assume you mean in the forums? If so, then you should always consider that any post that is years-old may be out-of-date.

Here's the wiki page on handling road closures.

But the gist is that you are correct - the North American tiles are (usually) updated several times a week. So any road that is going to be closed for several months should definitely be disconnected in the WME. I'd personally close a road that's expected to be closed for more than a week (unless I know of a problem where tiles are not being updated). Just make sure you stay on top of the situation so you can open it again when the construction has been completed.

Here's an example of a bridge that I've disconnected in the WME because it will be closed until next year: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=69845602

And here's an example of a permanent road closure similar to what you're describing. In this case I actually used an additional segment to note that the road really does not connect: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lat ... s=67573279

If you'd like us to take a look at the intersection you're talking about, select the segment in the WME then click on the word "Permalink" at the bottom right of the screen. That will create a unique URL that will take us directly to where you're talking about (just like the link I posted above).
AnotherHiggins
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:53 am
Location: NC
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Next

Return to North Carolina

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users