WTF

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Re: WTF

Postby cherianchris » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:42 pm

I'm sorry guys. This incident was across the papers in India. I read it and was asking myself the same question. "How can anyone target kids ?" CNN reported that the shooter was 20 years old. He did not grow old enough to solve his personal problems, and came to a conclusion that the society around him was at fault. Were there no places he could get help ? I don't think so. But his immediate family and friends were supposed to realize that something was wrong with him.
Can we blame society for all the wrongs which are happening ? Probably Yes, probably no. Look at what happened in New Orleans after Katrina struck. That day taught me that every society, no matter how advanced and structured, can self-destruct in a matter of hours. Look at Gujarat, India where thousands were killed in the name of Religion. What did the Government do ? It just watched an entire state burn.
We humans can take the hardest emotional hits, but it is upto each of us as individuals, to seek help when we need it. This is where the importance of a Support system within the family takes primary importance.
Such incidents are heart rending and will always remain etched in human memory. My heartfelt prayers for all the people who have lost their loved ones in this incident.
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Re: Re: WTF

Postby cherianchris » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:00 am

OldGnome wrote:I, for one, am glad to see a debate about firearms anywhere it can take place.

I have been a hunter, sportsman and shooting enthusiast since I was twelve years old - less than six years after John Kennedy was killed by a nut with a single-shot, bolt-action rifle.

Guns aren't the problem. Guns are only the weapon used by some to express anger and seek revenge in these tragedies. The same day as the Sandy Hook Elementary School tragedy, someone in China attempted largely the same thing with a knife. We will not be able to keep weapons, bats, cars, electricity or any other useful tool out of the hands of those who would use them for ill. The weapons used at Sandy Hook were legally owned, by who seems to be the gunman's first victim, his mother.

I agree that there are those who should not be allowed access to guns. I agree there are places where guns should not be allowed. However, I firmly believe that if every individual seeking to gun others down had to stop and consider whether there could be someone returning fire, many of these gun-related tragedies could be prevented.

I do not mean by this that everyone should rush out, buy a gun and strap it on. One must carefully consider whether you are capable of defending yourself and others, if the situation calls for it. One must also be educated and practiced in how to handle a gun and especially themselves in high-stress and dangerous situations. One must practice. One must take the responsibility of carrying a weapon as seriously as the potential consequences of using one.

There have been bad actors and tragedies in their wakes for as long as people have disagreed. As our pastor said in his sermon this morning, we cannot prevent evil from visiting. We can only seek God's face and His wisdom in the hopes that those who would commit atrocities can be helped before they act. We can only pray that everyone affected - and that casts a net far and wide to include every one of us participating in this thread - can find peace in the midst of so much sorrow.

It is not my intention to preach; I do not mean to offend, and I know there are those of many divergent backgrounds, world views and beliefs who will read this. However, I can only put this in terms that make sense to me. I was wondering why I have felt out of sorts the past two days until it occurred during service this morning that every one of us is affected by this horror, just as so many have been affected by other killings, whether near to home or far away. As for me, I can only pray.


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Re: WTF

Postby daknife » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:24 am

How do we stop these attacks? No idea, how do we limit and reduce them? Get rid of gun free shooting galleries. A recent study of mass shooting events found that when the police are the first armed response the average death toll is 18+, when an armed citizen steps in the average death toll is 2. Tell me how disarming honest law abiding citizens helps one bit? Instead I can cite Pearl Miss 1997, Young male about the same age as this shooter enters the local high school and opens fire with a 30-30 rifle, two dead before a vice principal can run out to his vehicle, retrieve his personal .45 from one locked container and ammo from a separate locked container, and go back inside where he confronted the shooter. The shooter had the better weapon but he froze when confronted with the .45 the VP took him down and held him until the police arrived several minutes later. Salt Lake City Utah April 2012 a Vietnamese immigrant buys a large kitchen knife at a local department store goes outside and stabs the first two people he comes across, an armed citizen draws his firearm and orders the attacker to the ground and holds him there until the police arrive (zero fatalities).

In the first century AD the Roman philosopher said "A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands" What was true nearly 2000 years ago about swords is still true today about firearms. The firearm is not the killer, the person using it to do evil is the killer, and the person who wields it to stop the killer, be it Police officer or armed citizen, is the hero, not the gun he used to stop the killer.

We need to stop blaming the tool and trying to penalize the millions and millions of law abiding citizens who do no harm, and rather frequently do good by stopping crimes in progress (Smiths Marketplace stabbing, April 2012). Blame the shooters, blame society, blame the arts, blame meds or insanity but it's not the tool that kills, it's the murderer who wields the tool in the course of doing evil.

And it's the ability to own a wide variety of weapons that ensures that the 2nd Amendment retains it's most critical role, ensuring that the citizen patriot is able to control the government rather than the other way around. And yes owning an AR is a key part of that. But even if not for that role, I own an AR for the same reason I own computers and a nice truck, (or someone else might own a shiny red sports car capable of traveling double or triple the legal speed limit) because I want to have fun with it. An AR is just plain fun to shoot, and it's great for hunting jackrabbits (where large volume of ammo between reloads is useful, it's also great for hunting coyotes, my hunting rifle is too powerful and risks doing too much damage if I happen to get a head shot, which denies me my bounty money ($50 per if I can turn in a complete lower jawbone), and my 22 rifle doesn't have the accurate reach either. But mostly I own one because it's a blast to shoot and because I can.

Oh and I carry concealed every day because I can and so I have a real option for self defense should I ever need it. I never want to have to pull my weapon, for moral and for legal reasons. But I will not cower in fear as me, my family (my oldest is in kindergarten so this shooting hit very close to home for me) or any other innocent bystander is mowed down by someone determined to do evil. I'm part of an active carry (open and concealed carry) community and we are organizing to provide free Concealed Firearm Permit certification classes to any Utah educator who wishes to be able to protect the innocent children they are entrusted with each day. Luckily under the great laws of Utah, where the 2nd amendment is strongly respected and protected, if they have a Concealed Firearm Permit (our term for the card) the Federal Gun Free School Zone act does not apply, and any educator who does choose to carry at work, while they are required to conceal at work, is protected by state law from any negative job actions for merely carrying at work, or for acting in defense of self or others.
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Re: WTF

Postby dmcconachie » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:19 pm

jasonh300 wrote:Not to sound like a holy roller, but years ago, people were taught to fear God and the fires of hell. This sort of thing isn't taught to anyone anymore.

So they're going to kill themselves and take out anyone who gets in the way and they believe there will be no consequences after their death. They aren't atheists...they simply have no beliefs, no conscience and no morals.

(Most atheists have a conscience and a moral code even though its not based on a higher power.

I'm an atheist, I don't need fear of a God to know right from wrong. There is a definite lack of education involved, be it parental or system related.

Surely the right to bear arms has to be questioned (again) though. How many more of these can the American people take?!
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Re: WTF

Postby dmcconachie » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:54 pm

bgodette wrote:
dmcconachie wrote:Surely the right to bear arms has to be questioned (again) though. How many more of these can the American people take?!
Because crazy always finds a way. It's simply the most convenient tool for them even tho more effective means of mass-murder exist that can be made at home from completely legal items.

Yes crazy will find a way but they don't exactly need to search hard! Saw a stat that the US has had twice as many incidents (31 vs 14 I think) like this than the rest of the world put together in the last x years (i forget the timescale but you get the point)
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Re: WTF

Postby dmiller1984 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 pm

Usually I feel bad about mass shooting, but this one especially got to me. How does someone gun down a class of 6-year-olds?
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Re: WTF

Postby harling » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Well, this is the "Off-Topic" forum. That said:

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to ensure that the general population would always be able to protect itself from, among other things, a government gone awry. Just within the 20th Century, a lot of Very Bad Things™ began with disarming the population.

Unfortunately, statistics are not gathered nor reported about how many crimes are deterred or lives saved through the presence, or use, of firearms; so what gets reported is a very one-sided story.

And I agree, it is our collective moral compass (or lack thereof) that needs attention. Too many influences in our society desensitize us to violence. Depictions of violence in our entertainment have become more graphic, more numerous, more interactive... and less consequential. How often are Rambo-type characters depicted as bearing the weight of the emotional and psychological effects that real people experience in the aftermath of violence against other humans? We no longer recognize that there is something about humankind beyond being merely the most intelligent/evolved/etc. animal on the planet*, whether it be bearing the Image of God, or however you care to express it.

* Or the third-most intelligent, if you believe Douglas Adams. ;-)
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WTF

Postby jasonh300 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:38 pm

Not to sound like a holy roller, but years ago, people were taught to fear God and the fires of hell. This sort of thing isn't taught to anyone anymore.

So they're going to kill themselves and take out anyone who gets in the way and they believe there will be no consequences after their death. They aren't atheists...they simply have no beliefs, no conscience and no morals.

(Most atheists have a conscience and a moral code even though its not based on a higher power.)




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Re: WTF

Postby jasonh300 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:04 am

In the theater shooting a few months ago, the gunman selected that particular theater because the owner of the theater didn't allow guns on the premises. The gunman knew that nobody in the audience would be able to shoot back. Around here, the gunman wouldn't have gotten a second shot off before someone else would've taken him out.
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Re: WTF

Postby Kuhlkatz » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:28 pm

In off-topic?
Should we rather change this to have everyone tell us in detail about their favorite fungal infection?

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