[Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:08 pm

I would support CBenson draft as is, it's better than what's currently there. And we can always improve the wording along the way. I would prefer if there was a note to point out that point 4 is a side effect and not the principal design, and therefore more subject to change.
Personally I'm ambivalent of the penalty vs Prevention debate. I believe they both accurately reflect the circumstances.

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby CBenson » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:41 pm

Ok, I have taken the absence of objection as approval and updated the USA page as set forth in my draft. https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Detour_Preve ... anisms/USA

There remain the significant issues that 1) there is no guidance regarding the possibility that final segment name discontinuity requirement is subject to removal and 2) the corresponding global page is inaccurate.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby qwaletee » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:27 pm

The lack of final segment name criteria permanence is speculative. We can go on endlessly about what Waze might do. I'm confortable leaving it as-is.

The global page inaccuracy is due to objections from a few global champs, who, some of our US experts believe, simply have an incorrect understanding of BDP. Repeated dialog has not resolved the conflict in opinions, so we'll just have to accept the situation as it is for now. I believe we can at least make a case for a callout on the global page to see your revised page for differing US guidance.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby bwawsc » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:24 am

Sorry, but to me, a lowly R3 editor, prevent means prevent, and if it fails to prevent then it failed. There is no difference between "prevent" and "prevent absolutely", just as there is no difference between "stop" and "stop completely". The current nomenclature is confusing, in more ways than just this. It deserves to be revisited.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:12 pm

bwawsc wrote:Sorry, but to me, a lowly R3 editor, prevent means prevent, and if it fails to prevent then it failed. There is no difference between "prevent" and "prevent absolutely", just as there is no difference between "stop" and "stop completely". The current nomenclature is confusing, in more ways than just this. It deserves to be revisited.

No prevention method is 100% effective. Condoms break, crimes still happen, and automobile engines still die no matter how diligent you are about changing the oil.

Detour Prevention is what Waze staff calls this mechanism and therefore is what we shall call it as well.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:35 am

sketch wrote:No prevention method is 100% effective. Condoms break, crimes still happen, and automobile engines still die no matter how diligent you are about changing the oil.

Every example you just listed is an unintentional failure of the prevention methodology. In Waze's detour "prevention", detours that occur when a penalty is overcome are intentional, not failures at all. To call them failures would be flat-out wrong. This is exactly why the word "prevention" is confusing; your examples prove my point.

Arguing that the English verb "to prevent" means "deliberately and intentionally to allow under some circumstances" is like arguing that because black cannot exist without its opposite white, therefore black essentially is white. As Douglas Adams pointed out, this may be philosophically correct but it will get you killed at the next zebra crossing.

This being said, I have come to understand that some changes in Waze are simply not going to happen. This appears to be one of them. C'est la vie; I gave this one up years ago.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby bwawsc » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:40 am

sketch wrote:No prevention method is 100% effective. Condoms break, crimes still happen, and automobile engines still die no matter how diligent you are about changing the oil.

Detour Prevention is what Waze staff calls this mechanism and therefore is what we shall call it as well.

Of course we will. But because the terminology confuses me, I will continue to think of it as "Big Detour Penalty" in the privacy of my mind. I promise I'll do it quietly - you'll never even notice.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby RodeNinja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:16 pm

Do ramp segments have a higher threshold to have Street Name Discontinuity? The last two sub-points of point 3 - Be careful of false positives, imply that one segment without an appropriate alt-name will NOT set the discontinuity flag, but a second instance will.

From the WazeO:
If the ramp does not also carry a simple alternate name of "I-1234", then there is a discontinuity of the highway name between the concurrency and the continuation highway. If there are two ramp segments like this, it will trigger Big Detour Prevention unexpectedly, and Waze will create an unneeded penalty for continuing on I-1234.

To prevent this, just assign I-1234 as an alternate street name to all ramps between the two sections (concurrency and continuation). Note that if there is only a single ramp segment connecting the highways, there will not be a "false positive." Nevertheless, it is a good practice to do this even for a single ramp segment, in case the ramp is cut into two segments later, either by accident or because later construction or map improvements connect another feeder ramp in the middle.


If there is a difference in the way ramp segments are handled, whether within a concurrency or not it should be called out explicitly.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby RodeNinja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:17 pm

Do ramp segments have a higher threshold to have Street Name Discontinuity? The last two sub-points of point 3 - Be careful of false positives, imply that one segment without an appropriate alt-name will NOT set the discontinuity flag, but a second instance will.

From the WazeO:
If the ramp does not also carry a simple alternate name of "I-1234", then there is a discontinuity of the highway name between the concurrency and the continuation highway. If there are two ramp segments like this, it will trigger Big Detour Prevention unexpectedly, and Waze will create an unneeded penalty for continuing on I-1234.

To prevent this, just assign I-1234 as an alternate street name to all ramps between the two sections (concurrency and continuation). Note that if there is only a single ramp segment connecting the highways, there will not be a "false positive." Nevertheless, it is a good practice to do this even for a single ramp segment, in case the ramp is cut into two segments later, either by accident or because later construction or map improvements connect another feeder ramp in the middle.


If there is a difference in the way ramp segments are handled, whether within a concurrency or not it should be called out explicitly.
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