Road Naming (USA)

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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Sat May 11, 2013 12:58 am

skbun wrote:Sure. I'll change the ones you mentioned above right now. I'm ALMOST CERTAIN this is a case of 'It was the defaults', and we don't really have good visibility into all states' standards...which is why this Wiki page really is needed in the first place. :)

I'll put under Michigan 'considering M-XXX'. This should give you what you want, mapcat, which is 'We think it may be this, let's discuss.' I'll make the changes right now!

Thanks. Re the "good visibility into all states' standards", IDK, but it seems that the overwhelming presence of one standard in the basemapped roads would indicate a standard, or at least a starting point.

Want me to investigate any of the other states? If statewide standards are to be set, then IMO they should at least consider a solution that won't encourage tons of edits for no real improvement. One reason I searched the forum for something on this was an Ohio editor who had been changing lots of roads from "State Rte XXX" to "SR-XXX". While he certainly wasn't damaging anything by doing this, it was unnecessary, and the result was less uniformity.

Also, whoever has any clout with management should ask them when they're going to make "State Rte" and "SR" and all the other variations on this list auto-generate shields like "State Hwy" already does. I have asked them about this repeatedly, and their response has always translated as "You lack clout".

Also, hey, Mapcat. Heard good things about you, and nice to hear from you. :)

Likewise! It's nice to have enough free time again to work on this.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat May 11, 2013 3:22 am

The idea of this discussion thread was to determine what standard is being used in each of the states. Remember that our primary mission is to always show the driver something that should match what they see on the road. If information is not present, then local editors familiar with that state voice their opinion as to what people will recognize and translate from a Wiki direction to a roadway sign.

If each state is using completely different signs and naming conventions, I don't think it helps to have Waze use one universal convention that matches none of the states. So I think we are on the right path, but let us be cautious of simply having one editor state an opinion and then that becomes the norm. The idea was to confirm with other state editors and come to a consensus before we make a change to the Wiki guidance.

And yes the current table was derived from the default Wiki direction of spelling out the State Hwy xxx and State Rte xxx, while a number of states already determined the shorter SR-xxx was much better in reading the navigation instructions on longer exit and roadway names.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Sat May 11, 2013 6:20 am

mapcat wrote:Also, whoever has any clout with management should ask them when they're going to make "State Rte" and "SR" and all the other variations on this list auto-generate shields like "State Hwy" already does.

Dave!

Shields will not rely on any naming convention. They will be directly specified in the editor, selecting a shield type and display characters. Primary street name will be used for tts. App will not, in the foreseeable future, display multiple shields or shield+name.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby skbun » Sat May 11, 2013 7:47 am

kentsmith9 wrote:So I think we are on the right path, but let us be cautious of simply having one editor state an opinion and then that becomes the norm. The idea was to confirm with other state editors and come to a consensus before we make a change to the Wiki guidance.

And yes the current table was derived from the default Wiki direction of spelling out the State Hwy xxx and State Rte xxx, while a number of states already determined the shorter SR-xxx was much better in reading the navigation instructions on longer exit and roadway names.


Another nice effect I think we're getting from this is that many states ARE discussing this topic in their respective state forums, whether 'keep the current', change for whatever reason'...and all of this is bringing to light who the editors in the various states actually ARE. Even in states where there tend not to be many editors at all, we're still seeing discussion and consensus, rather than brute force decree.

Also, unrelated but addressed earlier in the thread, North Carolina roads-that-are-not-state-highways. Found one!

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=35542807

It seems the basemapped name for these roads are 'State Rd XXXX'. North Carolina also calls these 'secondary roads'. Two choices on the table would seem to be 'State Rd XXXX' or 'Secondary Rd XXXX'?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby vectorspace » Sat May 11, 2013 4:18 pm

mapcat wrote:...IDK, but it seems that the overwhelming presence of one standard in the basemapped roads would indicate a standard, or at least a starting point. ...


This was my feeling as well. The basemap seemed to have a fairly uniform standard for states as "State Route" and "State Hwy" with other variations like just "Hwy." No doubt there was additional local variation. From the discussions at the Meetup 2012 around naming and shields (because they seemed connected in main and alternate fields), I perceived (not a decision) to move to SR-XXX for them all. I realize there has been an evolution of all those discussions. I researched the local NM naming of Highway versus Route and found no consistency of definition. Now we see a divergence of naming from shields, which is fine, but has an altered implication of urgency (from the Meetup) that it doesn't matter what we name the main and alt fields because shields will not source from that data.

While I have an opinion, I really don't care which standard is used, but we need one. It would seem we should come to an informed consensus across a majority of the states with everyone weighing in. Here are some of the principles that seem key. Please update/extend:

Assumptions/Issues

(1) Shields will generate from a data layer separate from names.

(2) What is the purpose of the alternate name field? In which way should it be used? Waze has certainly invested GUI time on making this work. We should know their intent.

(3) The TTS has an impact on this decision because SR is pronounced State Route, as far as I know (not State Road or some other things).

(4) There is a app display issue to consider here. "State Route XXX" takes a lot more space on the display than "SR-XXX" or some other abbreviation. Is that important?

(5) Is the basemap original standard set (full name or abbreviated) of any value in this discussion, or is it just ancient information?

Questions:

(1) Should there be a uniform cross-USA standard in naming State Route, State Highway?

(2) Should there be a standard for County Road, such as CR-XXX?

(3) Should there be a state-by-state standard, like NC-XXX for each state?

(4) Should the state-by-state name also exists in the name or alt name fields along with SR-XXX or whatever standard is picked?

(5) For future shield generation layer, can we get different artwork for each state to coincide with the road signs?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Sat May 11, 2013 5:22 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:The idea of this discussion thread was to determine what standard is being used in each of the states. Remember that our primary mission is to always show the driver something that should match what they see on the road. If information is not present, then local editors familiar with that state voice their opinion as to what people will recognize and translate from a Wiki direction to a roadway sign.

If each state is using completely different signs and naming conventions, I don't think it helps to have Waze use one universal convention that matches none of the states. So I think we are on the right path, but let us be cautious of simply having one editor state an opinion and then that becomes the norm. The idea was to confirm with other state editors and come to a consensus before we make a change to the Wiki guidance.

And yes the current table was derived from the default Wiki direction of spelling out the State Hwy xxx and State Rte xxx, while a number of states already determined the shorter SR-xxx was much better in reading the navigation instructions on longer exit and roadway names.

Agreed. So, then, I reiterate that the default in the chart ought to be what the locals call the roads, if that is known; otherwise it should default to the name given in the basemapped roads. As the table now stands, an editor seeking to correctly name the roads in Pennsylvania would see that State Hwy XXX was the standard instead of the State Rte XXX that came with the basemap (and which, in my experience, more closely resembles the locals' names for the numbered roads).

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Dave!

Shields will not rely on any naming convention. They will be directly specified in the editor, selecting a shield type and display characters. Primary street name will be used for tts. App will not, in the foreseeable future, display multiple shields or shield+name.

Good to know. To me, what you're saying is that we can still break shields by editing the roads, but bringing them back will require an act of God. Because experience tells me that the developers forget all about things they say "will" happen. I'm back but I'm still jaded.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Sat May 11, 2013 5:40 pm

vectorspace wrote:(3) The TTS has an impact on this decision because SR is pronounced State Route, as far as I know (not State Road or some other things).

This certainly is important, and I hope that the developers will engineer a solution that pronounces SR-XXX as "State Road XXX" in Florida and Indiana and "State Route XXX" in other places.

(4) There is a app display issue to consider here. "State Route XXX" takes a lot more space on the display than "SR-XXX" or some other abbreviation. Is that important?

I think it is for ramps, but not anywhere else. A road named "State Rte XXX" has a length comparable to any other street name.

(5) Is the basemap original standard set (full name or abbreviated) of any value in this discussion, or is it just ancient information?

My limited research shows that it matches up pretty well with local preferences, and absent any instructions from local editors, I think it's more valuable than elevating "State Hwy XXX" (or anything) to the default standard.

Questions:

(1) Should there be a uniform cross-USA standard in naming State Route, State Highway?

IMO, no.

(2) Should there be a standard for County Road, such as CR-XXX?

Given that individual counties within a state may vary on this, and the relative unimportance of these roads, it seems that complete localization would be impossible, or at least impractical.

(3) Should there be a state-by-state standard, like NC-XXX for each state?

IMO, no.

(4) Should the state-by-state name also exists in the name or alt name fields along with SR-XXX or whatever standard is picked?

Sure. Anything that will diminish editor confusion is good.

(5) For future shield generation layer, can we get different artwork for each state to coincide with the road signs?

Eventually, this would be great, but again, not if it causes the devs to shelve the entire shield generation process.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat May 11, 2013 5:42 pm

mapcat wrote:Agreed. So, then, I reiterate that the default in the chart ought to be what the locals call the roads, if that is known; otherwise it should default to the name given in the basemapped roads. As the table now stands, an editor seeking to correctly name the roads in Pennsylvania would see that State Hwy XXX was the standard instead of the State Rte XXX that came with the basemap (and which, in my experience, more closely resembles the locals' names for the numbered roads).

I think we are on the same page. To get where you propose we just need a local editor to make the case for what the roads are called locally. My point of default was pertaining to what the Wiki had listed. We brought this up because many of us do not think the universal standard as listed in the Wiki is actually universally standard. If you propose to change the Wiki to what you find in the state from the Basemap data, I think that is a good idea if we don't get an editor to chime in for that state.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Sat May 11, 2013 6:37 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:If you propose to change the Wiki to what you find in the state from the Basemap data, I think that is a good idea if we don't get an editor to chime in for that state.

Awesome. So have the invitations to chime in (besides this thread) gone out to the editors yet?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat May 11, 2013 7:41 pm

We are starting with the active editors in the forums. Then we can start reaching out to each state.
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