Road Naming (USA)

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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby vectorspace » Sat May 11, 2013 4:18 pm

mapcat wrote:...IDK, but it seems that the overwhelming presence of one standard in the basemapped roads would indicate a standard, or at least a starting point. ...


This was my feeling as well. The basemap seemed to have a fairly uniform standard for states as "State Route" and "State Hwy" with other variations like just "Hwy." No doubt there was additional local variation. From the discussions at the Meetup 2012 around naming and shields (because they seemed connected in main and alternate fields), I perceived (not a decision) to move to SR-XXX for them all. I realize there has been an evolution of all those discussions. I researched the local NM naming of Highway versus Route and found no consistency of definition. Now we see a divergence of naming from shields, which is fine, but has an altered implication of urgency (from the Meetup) that it doesn't matter what we name the main and alt fields because shields will not source from that data.

While I have an opinion, I really don't care which standard is used, but we need one. It would seem we should come to an informed consensus across a majority of the states with everyone weighing in. Here are some of the principles that seem key. Please update/extend:

Assumptions/Issues

(1) Shields will generate from a data layer separate from names.

(2) What is the purpose of the alternate name field? In which way should it be used? Waze has certainly invested GUI time on making this work. We should know their intent.

(3) The TTS has an impact on this decision because SR is pronounced State Route, as far as I know (not State Road or some other things).

(4) There is a app display issue to consider here. "State Route XXX" takes a lot more space on the display than "SR-XXX" or some other abbreviation. Is that important?

(5) Is the basemap original standard set (full name or abbreviated) of any value in this discussion, or is it just ancient information?

Questions:

(1) Should there be a uniform cross-USA standard in naming State Route, State Highway?

(2) Should there be a standard for County Road, such as CR-XXX?

(3) Should there be a state-by-state standard, like NC-XXX for each state?

(4) Should the state-by-state name also exists in the name or alt name fields along with SR-XXX or whatever standard is picked?

(5) For future shield generation layer, can we get different artwork for each state to coincide with the road signs?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby skbun » Sat May 11, 2013 7:47 am

kentsmith9 wrote:So I think we are on the right path, but let us be cautious of simply having one editor state an opinion and then that becomes the norm. The idea was to confirm with other state editors and come to a consensus before we make a change to the Wiki guidance.

And yes the current table was derived from the default Wiki direction of spelling out the State Hwy xxx and State Rte xxx, while a number of states already determined the shorter SR-xxx was much better in reading the navigation instructions on longer exit and roadway names.


Another nice effect I think we're getting from this is that many states ARE discussing this topic in their respective state forums, whether 'keep the current', change for whatever reason'...and all of this is bringing to light who the editors in the various states actually ARE. Even in states where there tend not to be many editors at all, we're still seeing discussion and consensus, rather than brute force decree.

Also, unrelated but addressed earlier in the thread, North Carolina roads-that-are-not-state-highways. Found one!

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=35542807

It seems the basemapped name for these roads are 'State Rd XXXX'. North Carolina also calls these 'secondary roads'. Two choices on the table would seem to be 'State Rd XXXX' or 'Secondary Rd XXXX'?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Sat May 11, 2013 6:20 am

mapcat wrote:Also, whoever has any clout with management should ask them when they're going to make "State Rte" and "SR" and all the other variations on this list auto-generate shields like "State Hwy" already does.

Dave!

Shields will not rely on any naming convention. They will be directly specified in the editor, selecting a shield type and display characters. Primary street name will be used for tts. App will not, in the foreseeable future, display multiple shields or shield+name.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat May 11, 2013 3:22 am

The idea of this discussion thread was to determine what standard is being used in each of the states. Remember that our primary mission is to always show the driver something that should match what they see on the road. If information is not present, then local editors familiar with that state voice their opinion as to what people will recognize and translate from a Wiki direction to a roadway sign.

If each state is using completely different signs and naming conventions, I don't think it helps to have Waze use one universal convention that matches none of the states. So I think we are on the right path, but let us be cautious of simply having one editor state an opinion and then that becomes the norm. The idea was to confirm with other state editors and come to a consensus before we make a change to the Wiki guidance.

And yes the current table was derived from the default Wiki direction of spelling out the State Hwy xxx and State Rte xxx, while a number of states already determined the shorter SR-xxx was much better in reading the navigation instructions on longer exit and roadway names.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Sat May 11, 2013 12:58 am

skbun wrote:Sure. I'll change the ones you mentioned above right now. I'm ALMOST CERTAIN this is a case of 'It was the defaults', and we don't really have good visibility into all states' standards...which is why this Wiki page really is needed in the first place. :)

I'll put under Michigan 'considering M-XXX'. This should give you what you want, mapcat, which is 'We think it may be this, let's discuss.' I'll make the changes right now!

Thanks. Re the "good visibility into all states' standards", IDK, but it seems that the overwhelming presence of one standard in the basemapped roads would indicate a standard, or at least a starting point.

Want me to investigate any of the other states? If statewide standards are to be set, then IMO they should at least consider a solution that won't encourage tons of edits for no real improvement. One reason I searched the forum for something on this was an Ohio editor who had been changing lots of roads from "State Rte XXX" to "SR-XXX". While he certainly wasn't damaging anything by doing this, it was unnecessary, and the result was less uniformity.

Also, whoever has any clout with management should ask them when they're going to make "State Rte" and "SR" and all the other variations on this list auto-generate shields like "State Hwy" already does. I have asked them about this repeatedly, and their response has always translated as "You lack clout".

Also, hey, Mapcat. Heard good things about you, and nice to hear from you. :)

Likewise! It's nice to have enough free time again to work on this.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby skapur1 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:54 pm

HavanaDay wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I sent a PM to Skapur1 to comment in this thread on an edit made to the Road Naming by State page in the Wiki Saturday. The change was for North Carolina from the current standard to:

State Hwy = NC XXX
County Hwy = SR XXX

Reason given: County roads are maintained by the state DOT in North Carolina.

I believe changing this page of the Wiki requires consensus with the other state editors. Unilateral changes should not be done without some discussion here or a notation that conversations have taken place with the other editors.

He is correct in his assumption about the reason he changed it but I don't think we have ever discussed it publicly. The last discussion I had about Road Naming in North Carolina was with FrisbeeDog privately and we were waiting to see how the shield implementation was going to pan out. I do remember one of our concerns was for the shields going away at the time if we changed it to NC-XX. So we kinda of tabled it for public discussion.

Personally, I like the NC-XX. I did a little experiment with it a while ago and the TTS was pronouncing it correctly (ie NC XX). But we could have gotten lucky with our state abbreviation. I believe others have run into issues with other state abbreviations so haven't pushed the issue.

I should have been clearer.

In North Carolina, SR does not mean State Route but Secondary Road.

See https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/saf ... -20_mm.pdf for a defintion from the NC DOT. NC-xxx numbers are unique statewide. SR-xxxx numbers are unique only within a county.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby vectorspace » Fri May 10, 2013 10:52 pm

OK, so I am a bit confused by the discussion in this thread after reading through much of it again.

It now seems that there is a "fad" of everyone naming roads based upon state names. For instance, in New Mexico, I know that some people use NM14 to refer to the State Hwy 14, so I could easily say that New Mexico state roads and highways should all be NM-XXX.

What I don't understand here is that I thought that there was a universal naming convention for the US, which would be more preferable than 50 or so different naming conventions. Why may this be important?

(1) We have a whole lot more editors that don't read the Wiki than do read it. This will never change.

(2) We have a lot of users of the app that go across many state lines, whether it is in those tiny northeastern states :) or the larger ones out west and south. This would appear to be confusing to see all these different standards.

To be clear, I thought we were moving toward a standard of: SR-XXX (for state route/highway) and CR-xxx (for county road).

On the other hand, some of the other mapping systems do name highways by state, eg NM-14, AZ-314, and even have shields on state highways that are exactly what you see on the road.

So has consensus moved to that we ought to go from one US-wide standard to state-specific standards?
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby skbun » Fri May 10, 2013 8:24 pm

mapcat wrote:Ohio and West Virginia maps already have "State Rte XXX" in use almost universally. Indiana uses "State Rd XXX". Is "State Hwy XXX" shown in the table for these states because the current convention is wrong, or because it was entered as the default? If it's just the default, please adjust the table to reflect what's currently in use in these states. Thanks.

On a semi-related note, would there be any problem in introducing "M-XXX" for state highways in Michigan? Many have already been changed to this, and I posted a question in the Michigan forum soliciting advice.


Sure. I'll change the ones you mentioned above right now. I'm ALMOST CERTAIN this is a case of 'It was the defaults', and we don't really have good visibility into all states' standards...which is why this Wiki page really is needed in the first place. :)

I'll put under Michigan 'considering M-XXX'. This should give you what you want, mapcat, which is 'We think it may be this, let's discuss.' I'll make the changes right now!

Also, hey, Mapcat. Heard good things about you, and nice to hear from you. :)
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby mapcat » Fri May 10, 2013 5:56 pm

Ohio and West Virginia maps already have "State Rte XXX" in use almost universally. Indiana uses "State Rd XXX". Is "State Hwy XXX" shown in the table for these states because the current convention is wrong, or because it was entered as the default? If it's just the default, please adjust the table to reflect what's currently in use in these states. Thanks.

On a semi-related note, would there be any problem in introducing "M-XXX" for state highways in Michigan? Many have already been changed to this, and I posted a question in the Michigan forum soliciting advice.
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Re: Road Naming (USA)

Postby HavanaDay » Fri May 10, 2013 5:25 pm

@Cbenson - Yes you dang northerns are always coming to our beaches :D (Spoken as a former Yankee)

@Kent - yes that is the way all the signs I have seen them look like. Distance to signs also tend to say NC-XX 12 miles

@skbun - That is probably what is most appropriate.
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