No through traffic

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Re: No through traffic

Postby ottonomy » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:38 pm

vectorspace wrote:Exploring another topic, I wonder if txemt and Driving79 can expand on their observations of how neighborhoods marked with Private Roads do not route well. This would help us understand how to address this in parallel with understanding the issue. We might also update the Private Installations page.


This morning, I asked txemt the following (in an off-forum convo), and he thought your input would be useful. Since you've brought it up here, I'll ask it again, slightly edited. Please let me know if this needs clarification:

As to the nature of the out-routing issues you've found when areas are set to all-Private: Is it a matter of Waze choosing the wrong exit, but using a path through the complex which would be direct, but just not optimal, because it can't tell the difference between better collector roads and lesser residential roads? (Instead of routing to closest exit, trying to route a straighter course, through the installation, perhaps through non optimal roads)

Or is it just random weirdness, where the routing seems confused and wacky?
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Re: No through traffic

Postby vectorspace » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:13 am

I agree -- I just was prompting txemt and Driving79 to expand details on the brief comments I had heard about this all-private-street issue so that the rest of us could learn from their experience.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby sketch » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:26 am

I am also curious about this. Theoretically, routing out of an all-private cluster of roads should be fine, since there should only be one transition penalty at the moment you leave the cluster, and that's it. So it shouldn't matter where the penalty comes, because the penalty only comes once and will be equal on all alternative routes. Unless the transition penalty isn't actually uniform — that could be the problem. Or, maybe it's just a weirdness with the way the A* search algorithm works. I might ask the routing dev about it if we determine it's actually a problem.

I'm extra-curious about HavanaDay's statement that the large private installations method leads to weirdness getting out. Isn't the large private installation method only supposed to use a private road on the entrances? So then why would any of that matter when exiting the facility?
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Re: No through traffic

Postby HavanaDay » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:17 am

sketch wrote:I'm extra-curious about HavanaDay's statement that the large private installations method leads to weirdness getting out. Isn't the large private installation method only supposed to use a private road on the entrances? So then why would any of that matter when exiting the facility?

If I said that I misspoke. What I meant to say was that using a two way private road on large private installations tends/sometimes does not give the most efficient route out of said installation.

I also defer to driving79 or txemt because as said before I have been trying to prove this theory wrong for a while now but everytime I come up with something to test it doesn't seem to route out correctly.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby ottonomy » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:28 am

HavanaDay wrote:I also defer to driving79 or txemt because as said before I have been trying to prove this theory wrong for a while now but everytime I come up with something to test it doesn't seem to route out correctly.

I have no particular angle in pursuing this, other than understanding what the causes are. For this reason, I would like to be given a specific example of "not routing out correctly", so that I can mentally process what might at the root of it.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:46 pm

With regard to the thread title -- "No through traffic" -- another special case has come up.

A mountainous area near me with a mix of good and poor roads sees occasional URs from people routed onto the poor roads. Usually this is due to drivers overshooting and Waze trying to get them turned around. Once it appeared to happen because Waze simply didn't know how slow the road was. This stands to reason if roads are so bad Wazers never go that way, and/or cell coverage is spotty.

In particular this has come up for Morrell Rd and Morrill Rd on either side of Summit Rd:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... 957&zoom=4

Recently an editor saw some of the URs being worked and solved the problem by setting the questionable roads to Private. The editor locked them to 3, I assume to prevent another well-meaning editor from changing them back since the roads are actually public and unrestricted (as far as I know).

Question: is it an appropriate use of the Private road type to prevent Waze from using roads that, while completely public and unrestricted, have been reported to be of poor quality? If not, what is a better solution?

[EDIT/p.s. I have asked the UR reporters more than once if any dirt road sections are involved, but have yet to get a response. If some part of these roads can be marked as dirt, that would of course solve the problem.]
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Re: No through traffic

Postby sketch » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:05 pm

Not a fan. They're public roads. This isn't a problem yet but it will be once private roads are differentiated in the client: If we start setting public roads as "private", users will see public roads displayed as if they are private roads, then people will see private roads on the map and think they're public, and may drive on them anyway. I just don't like it.

It should be within a GPS user's expectations that, if they drive against the route or miss a turn, the GPS will sometimes route them in a weird way to get turned around again. Maybe I expect too much from users, but I am always skeptical of turn-around routing in rural areas.

The real solution would be "Turn around when possible" like the big players seem to have.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby CBenson » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:58 pm

I agree with sketch. I addition to waze getting better at turning drivers around, there is the issue of obtaining good speed data for these little used roads in areas that may have bad GPS reception, bad network reception or both. In this case both Morrell and Morrill have SV images. Stepping through the SV can show if they were dirt roads when the SV car passed through. Stepping through can also show significant deviations between the SV reported location and the position of the road on the waze map. I don't know if these deviations impede the gathering of speed data for these roads.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:25 am

Regarding the SV on Morrell and Morrill, I thought I checked that some time ago and the imagery was partial; it did not extend end-to-end. But maybe I missed something! I will check again.

In any event, may I suggest the following addition to the Road Types/USA wiki article:
Suggested addition to Road Types/USA#Private Road wrote:{{As of|2014|8}} the Waze client does not display private roads differently from public roads, but this behavior may change in the future. To maintain display consistency in anticipation of that time, the Private Road type should never be used for unrestricted public roads. Do not use the Private Road type as a workaround to force Waze to avoid slow public roads, for example those with rough patches or construction.

I'm not sure what this means for the situation that started this conversation, a public road restricted by enforceable signs to local traffic only. We solved this by marking it private but technically it's not. Should it be marked as a parking-lot road instead?
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Re: No through traffic

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:41 pm

I agree with that.

I did also notice the large deviation between the segment and the street view the other day. I wanted to fix it at the time but chose to preserve the state of the map at the time.
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