[Update] Road Name/USA

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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby whatnt » Sun May 15, 2016 3:25 am

I worked on a Caltrans sign crew for many years, so I can give some insight about signs.

You'd be surprised by how many signs are actually missing.

When viewing SR-2 N to I-210 E in WSV, I quickly noticed that a G84 sign is missing. If it did exist as required, it would include "21A". It likely does not exist because it is not practical. It wouldn't last one day without being ran over. Why incessantly risk the lives of maintenance people with numerous errant vehicles for a sign that won't last a day? That's crazy! Exit 21B & C do come from SR-2, so they are assigned SR-2 numbering.

The same is true of your second example. Exit signs are required by Federal DOT standards. But they don't exist in WSV either. Why? Probably because they aren't practical.

The lack of an exit sign (or number) in WSV is not sufficient reason to exclude them from Waze segment naming.

Single-post G84 exit signs do not come from the manufacturer with numbers. The numbers must be cut out and applied by hand on each individual sign.

Sign crews learn about signs that need to be replaced simply by driving. They see a knocked over or otherwise damaged sign, stop their vehicles, and replace it. If you have ever stood on foot in a gore point, you will quickly learn that it is not a safe place. People literally have to stand on the freeway to replace these signs. Each crew must make a decision in the moment of whether it is safe to apply the number stickers to the sign--if they even know what number the exit is, and if they even have those exact number stickers on their trucks.

Often the answer is "no" to both. So they quickly install an exist sign WITHOUT numbers and leave.

This is often why you do not see signs with exit numbers. They are required, but often do not exist.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SuperDave1426 » Sun May 15, 2016 7:35 pm

DwarfLord wrote:In San Jose, I-880 S becomes SR-17 S. From the driver perspective, the highway just keeps going; it doesn't gain or lose any lanes. Despite there being no signs, the I-880 S to SR-17 S transition is officially I-880 Exit 1A. Two questions: (1) If California loses its waiver, would it be required by federal law to put up a sign alerting all traffic that they are taking Exit 1A (whether they like it or not, there being no choice)? And (2), does it mean we should add guidance to the map now, perhaps "stay to the left to Exit 1A" (although there is no place to leave the highway, so the "stay left" will be meaningless, but at least the Exit 1A will be communicated to the driver)?

If there is a particular need to have Waze say something at the transition point in a case such as the above, why does it need to say "exit to..." when the driver is simply continuing on? Couldn't you just add a wayfinder segment at the point of transition (preferably about where the sign might be showing on the road)? It might still say "stay left" in those cases, but then at least it would simply be announcing the new freeway number ("Stay left to SR-17 S").

I really wish that Waze would give us a "continue straight" voice prompt availability.... :?

Just my own thought on the matter. :)
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Sat May 21, 2016 2:22 pm

Looks good. Thanks DwarfLord.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Fri May 20, 2016 1:55 pm

As a Global Champ, if you can say that no other states need this information, then I agree that the language should be tailored to what they need and moved to the Californian wiki.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Fri May 20, 2016 6:37 am

The wiki is policy, and policy is read literally. It should not depend on implications, as that is when you will encounter misinterpretations. I believe we can agree that as written, the wiki does not state what you want it to state. Where we diverge is where this clarification shall be placed, not that it shall be placed.

DwarfLord wrote:I am not the world's best author. I'm not married to the wording of my proposed sentences and I am happy to discuss alternate language that accomplishes this goal. But we need to clarify this entry. People are misunderstanding the current wiki language. The US editing community will be well served if a few additional sentences can prevent that.

You're still assuming that it's your verbiage that I am questioning. The few additional sentences will only be preventing a scenario that occurs in California. California is not equal to National. I don't know how more clear to be on this.

Whether placed in California's wiki or the national one, changes are clearly warranted, and these are my suggestions:
  • I do not think using the word "obviates" in place of "prevents" is logical. "Prevents" explains what needs to be said and virtually all English-fluent individuals will understand it; most would have to consult the dictionary on "obviates".
  • In general, I think many of our wikis are too wordy. I don't think all the examples and explanation really add much to the page. The wiki should just say what needs to be said. My suggestion below is 3 lines, compared to the 9 of your proposal.
Suggested Verbiage wrote:If exit number signage is missing but pending installation, and/or Wazers are unlikely to be confused by our inclusion of a local agency-assigned (but unsigned) exit number in our directions, you may use the exit number. This prevents the need to re-edit the segment later. However, if in doubt, leave it out.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Fri May 20, 2016 4:15 am

DwarfLord wrote:Again I am not changing the rules. I like the US rules and I agree with them. I am not changing them and do not want to change them. I am proposing three and one half sentences that do not change the US rules. Their only purpose is to clarify the existing rules.

The existing guidance suggests the use of the exit numbers when they are assigned, even when they do not yet appear on the sign. Period. It doesn't say omit them under various circumstances that you would amend. Therefore, your proposed changes are modifying the rules.

Now if those circumstances were occurring in other states, I would agree that the modifications would be appropriate at the national level. Since you're making exceptions to a national wiki guideline that only apply to California, I do not see why this would be in national policy.

DwarfLord wrote:Are those three and one half sentences really so dreadfully objectionable?

No, they make perfect sense... but only in a Californian context. The national wiki page is long enough as it is. Exceptions only applying to one of the 50 States should not be on the national page.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Fri May 20, 2016 3:55 am

DwarfLord wrote:Because we have a lot of visiting editors who have read the US wiki and think they are experts at the rules. It doesn't occur to them that things might be different in California.

Editors failing to read/follow the state wiki (for whatever reason) are exhibiting behavioral issues that would need to be addressed...not by adapting the national standards for that state's unique needs, but rather by proper coaching and development of said editors to utilize its state wiki, and to follow through with appropriate consequences if the insubordination continues. It is an expectation in every state that editors are reading and obeying the state wiki when it contradicts with national policy. That is one of the primary reasons for the state wiki's existence.

Otherwise, you're essentially proposing that every national wiki be adjusted to account for every difference California (or any other state for that matter) makes in the US rules so these "experts" handle your scenarios correctly. That's not a reasonable solution.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Fri May 20, 2016 3:24 am

My inclination is that when 49 of 50 states are good with it as is, why doesn't the one that isn't make an exception in their own state guidance?
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:03 pm

Fredo-p wrote:Could you be a bit more specific about what section of the wiki you are referring to?

That's the section.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby SkyviewGuru » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:38 pm

There was some recent discussion in one of my GHOs about the examples further down this section of the page showing quotations around them. It is my position that the wiki was simply quoting what should be written, and not implying that the quotes themselves should be written. However, it was unclear to some in the channel, one being another State Manager, whether the quotation marks should be used on the ramp names or not.

I propose that we either use a different font/style to indicate examples of things that are typed (e.g. Courier New, or another color), or else something specifying not to include the quotes following an example, such as:

  • to I-84 E / Boise
  • "to I-84 E / Boise" (no quotes)
This way, there is no confusion about what is intended by the examples.
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