[Update] Road Name/USA

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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby jondrush » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:30 pm

We've been dumping EXIT on unnumbered exits. It just works better all around.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby qwaletee » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:21 pm

Moving the word Exit to the end would sound less awkward, though not as consistent with numbered exits. Building on Sketch's note, "Exit right to Kindergarten Ct Exit" has the verb/noun pairing.

IIRC, TTS ignores parentheticals, so we might look into that.

An alternative for freeways that avoids using the word Exit twice might be "Exit right to Kindergarten Ct ramp."
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby KB_Steveo » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:54 pm

sketch wrote:The "Exit to Exit to Kindergarten Court" is new
Or may have been fabricated in my mind while fixating on the redundancy for years without saying anything.... and it was late when I wrote that ;)

sketch wrote:Some have been using "Exit: Kindergarten Ct" instead, because it's more similar to numbered exits. The redundancy is still there, and it's said like "Exit right to Exit. Kindergarten Court." or "Exit to Exit. Kindergarten Court." Still redundant, but also more awkward.
Agreed, I think this is worse since it has redundancy and akwardness.

sketch wrote:The problem with using one for left exits and another for right exits is that, in attempting to compensate for TTS inconsistency, you create a display inconsistency (where only some exits say "Exit" on screen and others don't). If we're not comfortable losing the "Exit" on unnumbered left exits, then we have to keep it on unnumbered right exits.
Yes, I just mentioned it to make sure it wasn't overlooked in the conversation.

sketch wrote:Hopefully, an upcoming feature will allow us to create an "exit left" command. When that happens, we should reevaluate this question.
Probably when "continue straight" gets activated? :lol:

sketch wrote:Before making any big decisions here, we should be sure to get some Californians in on the discussion. If I understand correctly, California still has a huge number of unnumbered exits, so their opinion is valuable.
Yeah, I remember seeing a bunch in the LA area the other month without numbers.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA

Postby sketch » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:39 am

It's always been "Exit right to Exit to Kindergarten Court". The "Exit to Exit to Kindergarten Court" is new, but the redundancy has always been there, and I've heard complaints before too.

Some have been using "Exit: Kindergarten Ct" instead, because it's more similar to numbered exits. The redundancy is still there, and it's said like "Exit right to Exit. Kindergarten Court." or "Exit to Exit. Kindergarten Court." Still redundant, but also more awkward.

The final option is just to use "to Kindergarten Ct". Sounds better on TTS ("Exit [right] to Kindergarten Court"), but you lose the "exit" on screen. I think that's a fair tradeoff, though others may not.

The problem with using one for left exits and another for right exits is that, in attempting to compensate for TTS inconsistency, you create a display inconsistency (where only some exits say "Exit" on screen and others don't). If we're not comfortable losing the "Exit" on unnumbered left exits, then we have to keep it on unnumbered right exits.

Before making any big decisions here, we should be sure to get some Californians in on the discussion. If I understand correctly, California still has a huge number of unnumbered exits, so their opinion is valuable.

Hopefully, an upcoming feature will allow us to create an "exit left" command. When that happens, we should reevaluate this question.

(For numbered exits, it says "Exit [right] to Exit 123. Main Street. Anytown." This is acceptable because you are exiting (verb) to Exit 123 (specific noun). "Exit to 123" wouldn't make sense, and something like "Take exit 123 on the right to..." would require some modification of the street name string, which Waze has never done, so we have no reason to assume it ever will—that's not a convincing enough reason to change something that is as simple as it can be currently. For unnumbered exits, on the other hand, the noun tells you no more than the verb does.)


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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby DwarfLord » Fri May 20, 2016 3:41 am

SkyviewGuru wrote:My inclination is that when 49 of 50 states are good with it as is, why doesn't the one that isn't make an exception in their own state guidance?

Because we have a lot of visiting editors who have read the US wiki and think they are experts at the rules. It doesn't occur to them that things might be different in California.

Please understand I am not asking to change the guidance, merely to clarify it for the benefit of edge cases that are more common in California than elsewhere. I really am at a loss how anything in my proposal could be the slightest bit controversial.
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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby DwarfLord » Sun May 15, 2016 5:47 am

robertonthego wrote:So overall, as part of guidance, I think the exit number should be listed as it's federal standard for them to be there for exits and interchanges and they are present in 49 of 50 states. California signs could be replaced at anytime (and the replacement would have the exit number) so if we have the data at the time of it being edited, I'd say go ahead and add it.

Thanks a bunch. Can you clarify: are you saying that, by federal law, every single highway event that has a number on paper somewhere is required to have that number prominently displayed on signage as well? If it weren't for the waiver, that is.

Here's an example. It's a bit extreme, but an extreme example could help illustrate the conundrum.

In San Jose, I-880 S becomes SR-17 S. From the driver perspective, the highway just keeps going; it doesn't gain or lose any lanes. Despite there being no signs, the I-880 S to SR-17 S transition is officially I-880 Exit 1A. Two questions: (1) If California loses its waiver, would it be required by federal law to put up a sign alerting all traffic that they are taking Exit 1A (whether they like it or not, there being no choice)? And (2), does it mean we should add guidance to the map now, perhaps "stay to the left to Exit 1A" (although there is no place to leave the highway, so the "stay left" will be meaningless, but at least the Exit 1A will be communicated to the driver)?

I don't know if I'm in the minority, but I'd find such an instruction to be darn confusing...

My feeling is that, in situations that could confuse drivers, there is no particular pressing need to add (or force!) exit numbers into the Waze map that don't presently exist on signage. I'd like the guidance to be clearer about that; that at least until such time as the exit number actually appears on signs, it is optional on the map.

[EDIT: The fundamental problem is that US highway practice calls certain things "exits" that do not look like what most people think of as an exit. In those specific cases, the highway jargon is familiar to some but counterintuitive to most. Basically what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be in the habit of adding counterintuitive highway jargon to Waze instructions when it isn't even on any of the signage.]
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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby davielde » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:05 am

kentsmith9 wrote:There was a huge discussion on removing BUS and spelling it out. If the Wiki still has BUS anywhere, we did not get it updated.

If I recall, that discussion was earlier in the year when BUS was not pronouncing as "business", so we updated the wiki to spell it out until the TTS could be corrected. There may be some outstanding issues with BUS E, BUS W, BUS N, and BUS S that could be re-tested, but BUS itself would be a safe change as the TTS has now worked for a few months. I don't see a reason why the wiki could not be updated at this point assuming the different directions test okay.
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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby sketch » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:18 am

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, actually. "On entrance ramps, include both the name/direction and any control cities, even if they are signed on separate signposts." This is often the case on rural freeway entrances, at least in certain states (some seem to include a BGS everywhere).
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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:32 am

SH was actually only added recently; we'd been wanting to get it as a TTS abbreviation for a while, and we recently did. We'd held on to "State Hwy" for those states that would otherwise use SH-, but that's not necessary anymore. But yes, local convention is where we are and where we're heading; that said, I think there should be restraints on it. So it should be abbreviated, whether in a state-specific or a general form.

I'm actually not familiar with that routing problem, but I was indeed more concerns with driver benefit. For example, it makes report text a lot more helpful.
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[Update] Road Name/USA

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:35 pm

There's no need for anything superfluous tacked on at the end of the string. As you mentioned, it's inconsistent with other ramp names.

It's not necessary that there be two nouns in addition to each verb – "turn right on Main St" is fine with only one noun. The problem with "Exit to Exit to Kindergarten Ct" is that the second noun doesn't add any additional information, whereas the second noun in "Exit to Exit 123: Arnold St" does.

Tacking "exit" onto the end might temper the awkwardness problem, but it doesn't help with redundancy, and it kills consistency. Simply removing exit ("to Kindergarten Ct") tempers awkwardness, eliminates redundancy, and while it reduces consistency with exit ramps, it is consistent with onramps – so, on the whole, better.

The question lies in the balance between consistency and awkwardness/redundancy, and apparently in the past we have decided that consistency with numbered exits is more important. I don't think I'd personally answer it the same way, but that's how it is.

Oh, TTS doesn't ignore parentheticals. It does pause before them, not sure if it does so afterwards as well.


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