[Update] Road Closures

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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:31 pm

qwaletee wrote:Wrong, wrong, wrong. Mega-events use the same mechanism on the routing server, just a different interface for reporting them. This wasn't about ease of use of the reporting mechanism, it was about effectiveness and consequences. I didn't trust the mechanism until it has been proven over a longer period. Although we were arguing vociferously about it, it turned out that Marc and I had similar positions, though he was more worried about wasted miles where there are limited routes.

You did not trust the mechanism. Yes, at the time, "we had a consensus to disconnect", but only for those situations which are now covered by the closure form. That is as far as our consensus reached. We did not have a consensus that the closure tool was not to be trusted. Do not imply otherwise.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:50 pm

PesachZ wrote:To be fair there have been reports of the closure tool failing though, so perhaps this bears further discussion.

So staff needs to know about it. A few failures here and there doesn't mean we give up on something entirely.

And staff does know about it, and they're looking into it. Employing some hack instead of using the closure tool will mean that staff no longer has the means to study and fix whatever problems might arise with the closure tool.

If turn restrictions suddenly didn't work, would we set up complex AGC networks at every intersection that has restricted turns? If "LA-39" inserts an unneeded pause between "Louisiana" and "thirty nine", do we change all the state highway segments to "SR-39" or "Louisiana 39" or "LA 39" or "L A 39"? No, we don't. We get it fixed.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:51 am

kentsmith9 wrote:Non sequitur:

sketch has thanked the devil. ;)
sketch_thanks_devil.png


Just kidding buddy! :D

I would "thank" this post but then I would ruin it! :twisted:
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:43 pm

CBenson wrote:I remain concerned that the Road closures/Overview list is reflecting US standards that are not applicable everywhere. The Road Closures form method is written in a US centric manner and has a Road Closures Form link that I can not open.

I think a lot of the English-language guidance tends to end up rather US-centric as it seems most of the people on the Wiki updates forum are US editors. It also seems that editors elsewhere generally use their own forums, whether subforums here or separate forums elsewhere, when discussing their own regional standards. Then again, much of the guidance applicable here is applicable everywhere.

But I do agree that we have been writing this section with a US-centric scope. The US is not the only country with a closure sheet – there should be a list of countries that do have them, then the guidance should be split into "IF YOUR COUNTRY HAS A CLOSURE SHEET" and "IF YOUR COUNTRY DOES NOT HAVE A CLOSURE SHEET" for the time being.

Should the standards for reporting a "Mega Event" be the same everywhere. The event form lists seven categories - Global Event, National Event, Local Event, HY Local Event, Traffic Construction Related Event, Mega Crisis Event and Other Event.

In areas where there are Champs are subscribed to the Mega Events Mailing list, it seems that there ought to set forth a process to ensure that the closure sheets for submitted events are completed. In such areas any event with scheduled road closures can be handled through the Major traffic event form.

In areas that maintain a construction/emergency road closure form, the Traffic Construction Related Event should not be used on the Mega Event Form. If a construction related event is a Carmageddon type event then waze staff/champs can make the call to treat the construction as an event, but there is no real reason to have it submitted that way on the events form.

In areas that have Champs that subscribe to the Mega Event Mailing list and have a construction road closure form, there is really no reason to use scheduled restrictions in place of mega events or road closures. In fact, it should be discouraged as editing roads that are listed for closure through the mega event or road closure channels can cause problems. The issue here is that the average editor doesn't know what is submitted for closure as a event or construction road closure, but can see whether there is a scheduled restriction. I suspect many editors naturally think that they might as well add the scheduled restrictions just to be sure that the routing will be correct.

I agree with these points generally – that guidance should be different depending whether the country in question has a closure form/sheet.

Scheduled restrictions shouldn't affect a closure, though – and I think adding a scheduled restriction might be a decent way to add a note about the closure, although a UR can also be used and may be preferable. As long as the same segment remains connected between the same nodes, it shouldn't cause problems with closures.

This is the first I've heard of the mailing list, I must have missed the post...
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:38 pm

CBenson wrote:Is the [ROADWORKS] tag appropriate for such URs?

BTW, the "[ROADWORKS]" tag is UK practice and adopted because URO will show another icon for them. I'm sure we could get "[CONSTRUCTION]" added to that no problem.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:52 pm

CBenson wrote:Hmm, I've seen events for closures in very small towns. I'll accept (or delegate) the responsibility for working with any event that closes roads in the Mid-Atlantic region. I guess I'm just thinking that any event for which there are closures published more than a day or two in advance can be handled through the events form.

It's as Pesach said, Waze wanted to focus on events with some significant impact on traffic. Anyway, the point is now moot, because we have the Closure form.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:06 pm

COULD be, but don't need to be.

IMO Events should be for just that, events, and also large-scale construction projects that close entire swaths of freeway for months at a time. Things that are publicized under an event-like name. I can get deeper into it later, but any other construction is better handled in the closures form.

The closures form is more accessible in the case that something changes, so it's generally safer.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:37 pm

CBenson wrote:I agree that almost all construction is better handled in the closures form (in jurisdictions that have one). But the flip side is that almost all events are better handled in the events form.

The question is how to handle smaller event. Say a small town parade or road race that closes a few a roads. Do we agree they should be reported through the event form?

I'm not sure that the closures form is more accessible in case things change. Each event gets its own sheet that can be shared and updated.

Can be shared and updated, sure, but they can also be done without any Champ/CM/SM/... involvement, yes? (I could be wrong, I've only done two events and I'm a Champ, so.) I worry about an event going by with no one seeing the sheet but the submitter. And if there is an emergency reopening – in case of a big freeway closure, or maybe if there was a mistaken closure – the sheet has lots and lots of champs with access, whereas any one event most likely won't.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:15 pm

Oh... shouldn't those be on by default?
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:17 pm

qwaletee wrote:Do you have all that verified? Or is this opinion?

For example the info on % of usual traffic density verified? Because I saw a closure lifted with what seemed like very little traffic locally to me. I guess it was a % - you know the old joke, zero is a number, too.

And don't be so sure about snapping either. We know that the detailed analysis takes place in the drive update server, which is not real-time. We know closure lifts are real time.

And automatically reinstated closures? This is absolutely the first I am hearing about them.

I don't know how much of this is supposed to be public, so I'm going to be vague but informative.

1) About half the normal traffic on a segment is needed to lift a closure.

2) You may indeed be right about snapping. Closures are lifted real-time, not by the merger process. That said, (a) does Waze snap drivers to segments with closures on them, ever? (b) if you're routing, Waze snaps you to your route, which will not include closed segments.

3) Yes. A closure that is lifted for traffic is only lifted for a few minutes. It's reevaluated every few minutes until the programmed end time of the closure. So if you get a couple construction workers through, and a handful of mis-snapped drivers, and that manages to be enough to lift the closure, it'll be reinstated forthwith.
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