[Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:05 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:For timed restrictions, I really do think we need to cover ourselves against the situation where a lone driver is navigated into an HOV lane at 3:55 when enforcement starts at 4:00 and is not navigated to the first exit out as soon as the clock hits 4:00.

I'm still not sure I understand how this is going to happen (assuming I have just passenger car selected in the Waze client, as is currently hard-coded) if we effectively impose an even exit restriction at all possible exits, including the one at the end where the HOV lane ends. Wouldn't Waze just pick the path with the fastest traffic speed since all possible exits from the HOV lane have the same penalty regardless of what you're driving?

Well, to start, no one will be navigated into an HOV lane at all because of restrictions. A driver would have to enter the HOV on their own accord, and then sleep/wake or relaunch to force Waze to realize they're in the HOV. So if they enter at 3:55 and there aren't any exits within 5 minutes, it's on them.

If they enter at 3:55 on their own accord and there are, say, 4 exits ahead, one they'd get to at 3:57, one at 3:58, one at 4:02, and one at 4:06, there would be a high penalty on the 4:02 and 4:06 exits, so neither would be taken. The other exits wouldn't have a penalty, so they would be used.

Waze is "smart" about time restrictions, in that it calculates the time you are expected to get to that segment (or turn) when determining whether or not the restriction is in effect.

qwaletee wrote:One additional wrinkle about the start of enforcement times. A car which meets HOV requirements that gets routed (purposely or by override) onto the HOV during the permissive period may be told to leave the HOV prematurely to avoid crossing the (restricted) exit prior to the enforcement period.

We thus have to choose between restricting exits for the positives and leaving them unrestricted to avoid the negatives

If implemented:

Positives I am aware of:
* for mixed-use HOV lanes, can route non-HOV drivers off at the beginning f a restricted time period
* if non-HOV routes get very expensive for some reason e.g., traffic jams (likely given the fact that DOT decided to provide an HOV there!), the additional penalty adds safety to prevent HOV routing
* smarter routing (per sketch -- not sure what this is, may merely refer to some of the other bullets here)
* other benefits of additional penalty?

Negatives:
* Will lead legitimate HOV drivers off the HOV prematurely if they are driving it close to the start of a restricted period
* If incorrectly implemented (never happens, right?), can lead to some really weird routing/bottlenecking

If exits are not implemented
Positives:
* Legitimate HOV drivers will not be lead off prematurely during a transition period
* More forgiving of editor error in setting up partial restrictions systematically

Negatives:
* Non-HOV drivers who enter legally but close to the start of restrictions will not be warned to exit (a bit of nannying)
* If non-HOV routes become very expensive, single penalty may not be enough to avoid Waze rerouting onto HOV while double penalty may prevent it

Are there any other negatives/positives on the HOV exit restrictions? Also, has anyone actually tested routing with the double penalty or with full HOV restricted (i.e., definitely tested whether it actually routes off drivers who have decided to route on)?

Since HOV is not supported currently, we need to design the map for non-HOV drivers wherever there is a distinction between the two. So, when making these judgments, we should assume that every car is non-HOV, and allow Waze to properly guide drivers of non-HOV vehicles who are driving in soon-to-be-HOV lanes. With that in mind, the answer must be yes to exit restrictions.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:11 pm

I think I do like the idea of putting the time restrictions on the exits as well, just because it makes Waze a little bit smarter, a little bit more helpful. There is an equal "risk" of missing one entrance restriction, and that'd be just as bad as missing an exit restriction. As a philosophical matter, we shouldn't be creating rules around possible mistakes.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:27 am

CBenson wrote:There is not necessarily any clearing out. Sometime the lanes are just going from open to all to HOV restricted. If you are non-HOV compliant you can be on the lanes up until the cutoff time but can be ticketed after that time.

For some reason the VA police seem to like to monitor the exits rather than the entrances. I don't know if this still goes on, but it meant that if the HOV restrictions ended at 6:30 you could get on a little early as long as you didn't get off before 6:30. I've heard first hand that you could cut it too close.

Understood (and thanks to you too, Russ). I was thinking of the one and only HOV lane in New Orleans (and I think in Louisiana), which is reversible, and either HOV or entirely closed.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:25 pm

Would a timed HOV like that force you to get off at 4 wherever you are? I would imagine that they only close the entrances at 4 so the lane can clear out by whatever time it takes for traffic to clear it.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:11 pm

russblau wrote:Note that if this method is used, it is crucial that all exits be restricted correctly; if one is missed, Waze will route everyone on the HOV facility to that unrestricted exit segment.

We might want to add this to the Wiki page.

For security, it may be wise to set both segment restrictions and turn restrictions on all HOV lane entrance ramps.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:38 pm

qwaletee wrote:CBenson,

>> We used to use PLR to dissallow them. Now we can restrict them to only HOV vehicles which also disallow them

That's predicated on the HOV restriction setting having an effect on routing. That is not true today, so it is effectively "restriction free." Certainly, we should indicate correct HOV restrictions where we have them, just like we should be putting in truck restrictions. They're for the future app that supports those settings. The same applies to your last remark.

As CBenson said – but to keep it brief – while the other vehicle types don't do anything, the "Private Vehicles" restriction does work. So no matter what we allow thru – be it HOV, bus, or truck – if we restrict Private Vehicles, Waze won't use it. This is why we can use vehicle type restrictions today not only for data collection but also for restrictions of private vehicles in cases such as this. Then we don't have to change anything when the day comes.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:54 pm

khaytsus wrote:Would it be possible to clarify in the wiki precisely what happens when starting a route that goes through a TBR prior to the TBR starting?

Example.. TBR from 6:30 to 8:00 am and the users route goes through the TBR. If he starts his commute at 8:00, it would certainly route through the TBR as it's not restricted at that time, but if he starts his route at 7:59 and would arrive at the TBR location at 8:10 what is the behavior?

My expectation is the routing engine gives him a route that routes around the TBR and unless for some reason he receives new routing information (deviates from path, traffic, etc) he'll be routed around the TBR, even though he will be driving through it after 8:00am.

Thanks!

This is not the case. It has been confirmed by staff and in testing that TBRs are judged not by the time the route is started, but by the time you are expected to get to that particular TBR.

The benefits are obvious; the drawback is that, in threshold cases, you may be routed through one if it expected you to get to the turn at 8:01 but you actually got there at 7:59. That's not even really a drawback, though, compared to the other case (which would hypothetically route you through a restriction if your route started before it began).
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby sketch » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:39 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I agree with qwaletee's overall proposal with one exception on mapping them or not. At some point in the past I was told that the snap to tracking is for visual reference, but the routing server is tracking the actual location of the vehicle relative to speed information. Therefore when a driver is in the HOT/HOV lane, even if Waze shows them in the std. freeway lane, the fast moving driver is not altering the freeway speed data. Have we confirmed or disproved that information?

That is correct. The merger process compares your GPS trace directly to the segments on the map, with no regard for the route Waze gave you or the segments Waze snapped you to.

GPS resolution is generally good enough to show roughly which lane you were in. Yes, there will be occasional GPS errors and drift, but in general (at least with my phone in my car) it's pretty precise.

Look at your drives in the Drives tab if you wanna check it out. Turn the roads layer off and follow the green line along the satellite imagery. It may look a little off or jagged around turns but that's only because Waze only takes note of your location once per second. Also – the trace turns red when merger was unable to find a road or possible connection for whatever it is you actually did.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby russblau » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:09 pm

CBenson wrote:Motorcycles are permitted to use the HOV lanes around here, but that may not be universal. But around DC (i.e. in Maryland and Virginia) the motorcycle box should be left unchecked as well.

I'm never quite sure whether taxis or buses are intended for riders or drivers (or maybe both). It will be interesting to see whether the client allows multiple choices or whether you can only be a taxi or HOV-2.


If I recall correctly, the rule that motorcycles are permitted in HOV lanes is mandated by USDOT, so it should apply nationwide. (Outside the US, of course, is a different story.)

The Virginia DOT rules permit taxis with passengers in the HOV lanes; of course, for I-66 (HOV-2) that is a moot point, but it does make a difference on I-395/95 (HOV-3), where a taxi with a driver and a single passenger would be permitted. They also permit "Buses designed to transport sixteen or more passengers, including the driver," which suggests that even if the bus is empty (except for the driver) it is still allowed. I would guess that other states may do it differently.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby russblau » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:24 am

PhantomSoul wrote:Shouldn't the other fork, at each possible exit to the HOV lanes, which stays in the HOV lanes actually have a little way-finder segment that blocks all non-HOV vehicles during times when such restrictions are in effect? This way if a non-HOV vehicle is in the lane when the clock strikes 4:00 (for example), the directions are pretty much guaranteed to tell you to exit out of the HOV lanes at the next possible opportunity.

That defeats the whole purpose, which is to allow Waze to provide useful directions to HOV drivers who legally enter the HOV lanes and then rely on navigation from that point.

Just to be clear, this whole thing is a "workaround" for the lack of vehicle type settings in Waze. When that is implemented, "soon," we won't need to worry about restricting entrances and/or exits, and instead can just set the HOV facility as restricted to the appropriate HOV class.
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