[Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:54 pm

It sounds good to me too, with one concern. The emphasis (boldface) given to the sentence "Do not enable turns at railroad crossings" makes it sound like this is important. Why is it important? Do we not trust Waze to prohibit routing onto tracks regardless of TRs?

If we do trust Waze never to route onto tracks, great. Take away the boldface and leave the impression that it is simply best practice.

Or, if there's another reason I'm missing, great. Leave the boldface and explain a little what that other reason is.

But if we don't trust Waze not to route drivers onto the tracks regardless of TRs, then what are we doing?

I just saw a UR drive trace in San Francisco where a driver, thinking he/she was obeying Waze, actually turned against a one-way sign into oncoming traffic on Golden Gate Ave and got about half a block before turning around! (The one-way setting on Golden Gate was correct, so I think it was timing confusion.) Drivers will do really stupid things. If we don't trust Waze not to route drivers onto tracks, I do not want it on my conscience that somebody died because I missed a TR, especially one that was necessary in the first place only because we were trying to finesse Waze's routing capabilities.
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby nzahn1 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:11 pm

DwarfLord wrote:If we do trust Waze never to route onto tracks, great. Take away the boldface and leave the impression that it is simply best practice.
I have no evidence that the routing prevention will fail, but found a "better safe than sorry" attitude in the forums/chats. I'd be happy to remove the emphasis, and leave it as important as the remainder of the paragraph.
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby Timbones » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:02 pm

[Offtopic] There is no global page of Road Types yet. I think much of the (non)USA content can be used to make one.

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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby bummerdude69 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:15 pm

[*]Set the elevation just as you would a drivable segment. When tracks junction a road on the ground, the Elevation should be set to Ground.

When tracks junction a road, the Track Elevation should be set to the same as the road.

Suggest wording change to allow for when road & track might be above or below ground level.
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby PesachZ » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:43 pm

Even if we trust Waze we also have to trust other editors. There's a possibility the RR may be accidentally switched to say walking trail by a new editor. The restricted arrows represent a fail safe. And in such a critical navigation decision, redundancy is good.

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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:59 pm

PesachZ wrote:...redundancy is good.

Absolutely, I'm completely in favor of redundancy.

I just don't want the wiki to convey the (hopefully mistaken) impression that we don't trust Waze, and that a railroad TR may be the only thing that stands between a good route and disaster. That's the sense the boldface emphasis seems to convey.

Regarding risk from novice editors -- Waze is, by intent, always at risk. A novice editor could, for example, change a street that is one-way west to one-way east, possibly leading to a wreck. That's part of the deal; Waze steadfastly insists that no training, testing, or communication should stand in the way of someone who wants to start editing, and indeed continues to offer a (thankfully optional) counterproductive training video. It's almost as if they want editors, if not drivers, to crash and burn.

Anyway, while I support redundancy, I don't believe boldfacing it makes sense. Everything's at risk all the time; we'd have to boldface the whole wiki :mrgreen:
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby sethzo » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:09 pm

I think it very important to add the railroad crossing info; I pass several crossings on my roads and if a train approaches these are quite a delay. Sometimes there are alternates to avoid the crossings. If the crossings are noted the algorithm might be better- not only to indicate possible delays but to avoid them all together.
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby nzahn1 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:33 pm

Without further objections I will add the following language to the wiki. Bolding can be added at a later date if consensus is reached.

The "Railroad" road type serves three purposes in Waze. First, it provides drivers with visual orientation relative to railroad and light-rail tracks. More importantly, in the common case where passenger-carrying tracks lie parallel with roads, mapping the tracks allows Waze to recognize spurious speed data from people Wazing on the train and prevent it from corrupting speed data for the adjacent road. Finally, when a railroad crosses a drivable road segment at grade (same elevation) the routing server can better determine delays at that crossing.

{{As of|2015|2}} the automated [[Map Problems in Waze Map Editor|Map Problem]] search algorithm will identify suspected errors at railroad crossings. It is common to see the “restricted turn might be allowed” error where a railroad crosses a drivable segment nearby to where another drivable segment also crosses. These kinds of map error should be marked as “Not Identified” so that they are not shown again at that location. Do not enable turns at railroad crossings.


  • Do not map railroads below ground, as they do not serve any of the three purposes outlined above. This is especially true in urban areas where underground railroads are common, and their appearance on the map would be confusing to drivers.
  • Set the elevation just as you would a drivable segment. When tracks junction a road on the ground, the Elevation should be set to Ground.
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby nzahn1 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:41 pm

Also, can we talk about the abunant number of boxes at the top of this page:
Code: Select all
{{mbox
| type = critical
| text = The contents of this page were completely revamped starting 19 April 2014, to incorporate an entirely new set of guidelines for map editing. All US editors should familiarize themselves with the contents of this page. Please see [http://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=276&t=85397 this topic] for details.
}}
{{UpdatedBanner
|majorDate    = 1/14/15
|majorDesc    = Clarify when to use PLR vs Private Road for apartment complexes, trailer parks, schools, universities, etc.
|majorForum   = http://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=276&t=124820}}
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Re: [Page updates] Railroads can be junctioned

Postby Timbones » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:02 pm

nzahn1 wrote:Without further objections I will add the following language to the wiki. Bolding can be added at a later date if consensus is reached.

First, it provides drivers with visual orientation relative to railroad and light-rail tracks.

...except that the app doesn't [yet] show railroads on the map for [ordinary] users. It might be worth mentioning this, and that railroads will [hopefully] be shown in the future.
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