[Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:29 pm

sketch wrote:...a mechanism designed to prevent detours—not to stop them from ever happening...

No, I'm not buying this.

Waze designed detour detection (which I believe is what they call it) intentionally to allow detours under certain circumstances. But the verb "to prevent" does not connote intentionally to allow. If you buy a theft prevention system, do you really assume that it is designed to allow theft in some situations? If you bring it back after it has intentionally allowed a theft, do you really think customer service is justified in laughing at you because you misunderstood the word "prevention"?

I agree that it doesn't matter to experienced editors what words are used, since we already know what they are supposed to mean. Heck, the wiki would be written in Minionese for all we care.

My concern is to support new and advancing editors as best as we can. The question is, do they find the "prevention" terminology confusing?

Again, I would like to invite new and advancing editors to offer their perspectives on whether the term "Big Detour Penalization" would better convey the concept of a system intended to allow detours under certain circumstances instead of the term "Big Detour Prevention".
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby CBenson » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:27 pm

Well for the record I'll state that I have no objection to Detour Penalty. I didn't really put much thought into the title which was originally "Small Detour Prevention Mechanism." Alan immediately called me out on Small, which proved prophetic when waze came up with another detour penalty for even smaller detours.

https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=276&t=68126
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby wimvandierendonck » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:22 pm

DwarfLord wrote:detours, which may or may not result in prevention, depending on circumstances.


Is prevention a result? Isn't prevention a mechanism that makes use of the penalization mechanism? So the result of the prevention mechanism is a detour that will or will not be made?

DwarfLord wrote:the naive reader to believe that Waze is designed to disallow detours at all times; that a detour that does occur reflects Waze failure. This is not accurate!


Wouldn't the same naive reader also use the term 'failed' in combination with detour penalty? And wouldn't that be equally incorrect?
The reader has to understand that it is better not to communicate that the mechanism has failed, but that the detour was the best option despite the prevention mechanism. Will, using the term penalty in the name of the mechanism, help with learning to understand this?

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Last edited by wimvandierendonck on Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby voludu2 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:46 pm

I would have no objection to "Detour Penalization Mechanisms". After all, it uses the same acronym.
They are meant to prevent detours in some circumstances and to allow them in others.

We will have to expect quite a number of experienced editors to carry on using the older term, which could be somewhat confusing.

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby sketch » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:30 pm

It prevents detours in cases where such prevention is warranted. Nothing about "detour prevention mechanism" means "this mechanism will ensure that you never get a detour". It says "this mechanism is designed to prevent detours," which is true.

Further, "detour penalty mechanism" will be harder to explain to people who don't know what a "penalty" is in the context of the Waze routing engine, which is to say, anyone who isn't a map editor with some sort of experience. We can say to someone who reported a UR, "Normally, Waze's detour prevention mechanism would not send you off and right back onto a highway, but in special circumstances, such as extremely heavy traffic, the mechanism is designed to allow a detour if it would save you a significant amount of time." You'd have less questions than if you said "Detour penalty" – then you have to include some explanation of what "penalty" means in the context of a route.

"Detour prevention mechanism" is an accurate and understandable name for what it is.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby DwarfLord » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:17 pm

I still don't buy it.

This thread is about the wiki. It is not about talking to reporters.

The purpose of the recommendation is to improve the wiki so it is less confusing to editors. Specifically, to new and advancing editors.

I have encountered editors who do not understand that Waze intentionally routes detours over detour-prevented routes. They do not understand that, when Waze does this, it is considered a success. They do not understand that when Waze allows prevented detours, the prevention system is working as expected. This is because they are confused, and I think it is because the word "prevention" confuses them. I do not want them to be confused. I would like to improve that by improving our guidance for editors.

No argument has yet been made that the current terminology is less confusing than the proposed terminology. The argument that is being made is that the current terminology means what we want it to mean provided we already know what it means. That is fine for experienced editors. It is not fine for new editors.

You are welcome to use any language you like in talking to reporters. This thread is about informing and educating editors.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:45 pm

After a recent response from staff which explains several anomalies discovered in routing which appeared to be inconsistent with our understanding of when BDP was applied, I propose to make some changes to the criteria section of the page.

The change basically removes the premise that only one segment missing a name anywhere along the possible detour path is ignored, and does not break name-continuity.

1)
Current wiki text:
Conversely an "uninterrupted name" is defined as a series of segments in middle of a route which do have an identical name on all the segments (with the exception of a single isolated segment among them).

Should be updated to say:
Conversely an "uninterrupted name" is defined as a series of segments in middle of a route which do have an identical name on all the segments.
NOTE: There is no single isolated segment exception.

2)
Current wiki text:
To be considered as a possible detour there must be a Freeway / Highway segment of the same 'Road Type Group', which share any name, both before and after a series of segments which contain a name-discontinuity, and are in a different 'Road Type Group'.

Should be updated to say:
To be considered as a possible detour there must be a Freeway / Highway segment of the same 'Road Type Group', which share any name, both before and after a series of segments (more than one) which contain a name-discontinuity, and are in a different 'Road Type Group'.


If there is no opposition to this change noted, I will make it shortly.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:55 pm

PesachZ wrote:Should be updated to say:
To be considered as a possible detour there must be a Freeway / Highway segment of the same 'Road Type Group', which share any name, both before and after a series of segments (more than one) which contain a name-discontinuity, and are in a different 'Road Type Group'.

I'm not quite following the language...the second change (above) appears to contradict the first?

Specifically, the phrase "more than one [segment] which contain a name-discontinuity" in the second change appears to contradict the previous change indicating that even one segment's worth of name discontinuity qualifies as an "interrupted name".

Perhaps I missed something in the context of the remainder of the article...I didn't go back to review it.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby CBenson » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:06 pm

What do the "name-discontinuity" and "uninterruped name" concepts add to understanding the BDP? Would this be correct?
https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/User:CBenson ... Mechanisms
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:18 pm

DwarfLord wrote:
PesachZ wrote:Should be updated to say:
To be considered as a possible detour there must be a Freeway / Highway segment of the same 'Road Type Group', which share any name, both before and after a series of segments (more than one) which contain a name-discontinuity, and are in a different 'Road Type Group'.

I'm not quite following the language...the second change (above) appears to contradict the first?

Specifically, the phrase "more than one [segment] which contain a name-discontinuity" in the second change appears to contradict the previous change indicating that even one segment's worth of name discontinuity qualifies as an "interrupted name".

Perhaps I missed something in the context of the remainder of the article...I didn't go back to review it.


There are actually two concepts here.
1) In order to be considered a possible detour there must be more than one segment long between the two segments of the same road type group. This means in a freeway example that there is at least 2 segments which are not freeway or major highway between the 2 freeway segment.
2) once assessing a possible detour for name discontinuity, even one segment missing the name will be enough to be considered a discontinuity.

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