[Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:18 pm

CBenson wrote:I don't know. I don't think its good practice to name cross streets between a divided highway with the name of the highway in order ensure compliance with a shifting BDP implementation.

We wouldn't have to since cross streets between the divided highway are only one segment long and therefore wouldn't meet penalty criteria as a possible detour regardless of name or type.

Edit: under your criteria section you could clarify this to make it stand out more.
"possible detour" is a series of segments (more than one) in the middle of a route which meet the minimum criteria to trigger an evaluation.

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby edsonajj » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:22 pm

PesachZ wrote:
CBenson wrote:I don't know. I don't think its good practice to name cross streets between a divided highway with the name of the highway in order ensure compliance with a shifting BDP implementation.

We wouldn't have to since cross streets between the divided highway are only one segment long and therefore wouldn't meet penalty criteria as a possible detour regardless of name or type.

Edit: under your criteria section you could clarify this to make it stand out more.
A "possible detour" is a series of segments (more than one) in the middle of a route which meet the minimum criteria to trigger an evaluation.

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But what if it is, like on my example, a crossing with an overpass? According to the article I should put name A on the connecting ramps and in one segment of road B.
Mind you, that would very probably suppress the instruction to exit right on the ramp.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:54 pm

edsonajj wrote:But what if it is, like on my example, a crossing with an overpass? According to the article I should put name A on the connecting ramps and in one segment of road B.
Mind you, that would very probably suppress the instruction to exit right on the ramp.

In you example yes the overpass segment should also have the alternate name of "Av. Paseo Constituyentes".
In the USA this would not have been an issue at all, since our guidance here is to always add a cardinal direction to end of a divided freeway name. Such that in the USA the two directions of this fwy would have been named "Av. Paseo Constituyentes N" and "Av. Paseo Constituyentes S". One of the reasons we do that is precisely for such U-turns not to trigger BDP.

You don't need to worry that adding the alt name to the overpass PS will eliminate the instruction to the ramp because of a BC name match, since continuing straight on the PS is also a name match. Therefore the BC algorithm will check for a type match; continuing straight on the PS will be BC, taking the ramp will get an instruction even with the alt name.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby CBenson » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:10 pm

I don't know. I think I have to disagree.

PesachZ wrote:In the USA this would not have been an issue at all, since our guidance here is to always add a cardinal direction to end of a divided freeway name.

Where is this guidance?


It seems to me that add names to segments that are clearly for a road with a different name is bound to cause problems in the long run. To do so because the BDP may potentially be changed to penalize this route still does not seem like good practice to me.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:33 pm

CBenson wrote:I don't know. I think I have to disagree.

PesachZ wrote:In the USA this would not have been an issue at all, since our guidance here is to always add a cardinal direction to end of a divided freeway name.

Where is this guidance?


It seems to me that add names to segments that are clearly for a road with a different name is bound to cause problems in the long run. To do so because the BDP may potentially be changed to penalize this route still does not seem like good practice to me.

In the road names wiki, it is listed for all US numbered highways.
Federal highways should be denoted as follows. Note that the trailing N, S, E, W cardinal direction indicator is used for numbered highways and interstates which are split into two 1-way segments
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:21 pm

Clearly that needs to be better stated, but it is best practice to use cardinals on every divided numbered highway, and every divided freeway however numbered or named, in the US.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:30 pm

sketch wrote:Clearly that needs to be better stated, but it is best practice to use cardinals on every divided numbered highway, and every divided freeway however numbered or named, in the US.

Want to add it to your list of updates that need to be made "soon" :lol:
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby qwaletee » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:19 pm

WHat I'm hearing is that we still don't know precisely how BDP works, and there are cases where there is BDP that we would think aren't and/or where we would think there is BDP but it does not actually kick in.

I consider this a serious issue. It makes it impossible for us to explain clearly.

Given that, we may as well go with a very simplified explanation that works 80%-90% of the time, insert a qualifier that there are other rules that may affect whether BDP is applied, and call it a day. It will be much more comprehensible to the uninitiated reader than the complete, very technical and detailed description of all we know, without deviating much more from the (unknown) BDP reality than that more complete description would provide.

Also, some of the back and forth above seems limiting in how the information will be used. Reader want to know:

* What BDP is
* How it works (as simply as possible)
* When BDP will kick in and when it won't
* When it is beneficial to force Waze to apply or not apply BDP (contrary to Waze's norm)
* How to force it to happen or not to happen in those situations
* Example, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples
* More examples. Seriously. There should be at least one example at every rule showing how it applies and where it fails.
* A more detailed technical reference with all teh caveats that we know about
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:32 pm

qwaletee wrote:WHat I'm hearing is that we still don't know precisely how BDP works, and there are cases where there is BDP that we would think aren't and/or where we would think there is BDP but it does not actually kick in.

I consider this a serious issue. It makes it impossible for us to explain clearly.

Given that, we may as well go with a very simplified explanation that works 80%-90% of the time, insert a qualifier that there are other rules that may affect whether BDP is applied, and call it a day. It will be much more comprehensible to the uninitiated reader than the complete, very technical and detailed description of all we know, without deviating much more from the (unknown) BDP reality than that more complete description would provide.

Also, some of the back and forth above seems limiting in how the information will be used. Reader want to know:

* What BDP is
* How it works (as simply as possible)
* When BDP will kick in and when it won't
* When it is beneficial to force Waze to apply or not apply BDP (contrary to Waze's norm)
* How to force it to happen or not to happen in those situations
* Example, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples
* More examples. Seriously. There should be at least one example at every rule showing how it applies and where it fails.
* A more detailed technical reference with all teh caveats that we know about

I won't argue with your skeleton for an improved reader experience, it seems to be quite nice.

I will argue that I believe with the information above we have a very solid of how and when BDP today. Like anything in the routing engine, especially penalties, they are always in a state of potential flux. Therefore when we know that a specific limitation is only implemented due to processing constraints, as opposed to intended operation, it is prudent to assume they may improve the process to more accurately meet their intent at some point in the future. We therefore when designing guidance should do so in a manner that is compatible with the operation today, as well as the intent. This will give us configurations that work 100% of the time.

Even before the updates I received yesterday, we had a very good success rate forcing the BDP to apply or not where we wanted it. There were a few reported anomalies which led to more research, and finally this update.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby voludu2 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:31 am

I suggest that we have the simple explanation, as described by Qwaletee, that can be understood by those beginning to learn BDP, which will allow them to get a "feel" for the material. This should come with a very brief qualifier that this is not the whole story, but will work 90% of the time (or whatever our best guess is). The goal of this section is to provide guidance for building interchanges and intersections in a sensible way that will usually avoid weird routing. The explanation of "how it works" is only necessary to give the reader a "feel" for what is going on, which is often important for learning and remembering this kind of material.

Then we have the additional details,qualifiers, conjectures, results of testing, explanations from staff, etc, captured, collated, organized as well as possible for those who wish to learn everything known about the subject.

As an aside - it is quite common for introductory texts to contain "how it works" explanations that are not comprehensive, and often not even strictly true. You can see this in text books for Chem 101 and for Celestial Navigation.

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