[Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:04 am

@Qwaletee and @Voludu2 you both have great ideas which should be examined and hopefully implemented. But that is a longer term goal; drafting, checking, simplifying, redrafting, gathering examples....

I am in no way opposed, but in the short term would like to correct the page now to what we know is accurate.

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby edsonajj » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:13 am

The current proposal seems difficult to understand, at least I wasn't sure that I had understood correctly at first as can be seen several posts earlier.

I dare to consider myself experienced in Waze and had difficulty in understanding it. Without wanting to just criticise the work that has been done, it most probably won't be understood by new editors.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:19 am

edsonajj wrote:The current proposal seems difficult to understand, at least I wasn't sure that I had understood correctly at first as can be seen several posts earlier.

I dare to consider myself experienced in Waze and had difficulty in understanding it. Without wanting to just criticise the work that has been done, it most probably won't be understood by new editors.

I understand what you're saying and this is not really geared to new editors it is a difficult concept. Which is why it's being suggested to be revived. However I still think that while we work on the revision we could update the current text to be accurate

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby qwaletee » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:04 am

In my running on and on, I still left out a major point.

Editors will also come here to help them do analysis of odd routing. That generally must be based on current behavior, not future behavior. At the same time, it will require information that is complete as possible.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby CBenson » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:11 pm

sketch wrote:Clearly that needs to be better stated, but it is best practice to use cardinals on every divided numbered highway, and every divided freeway however numbered or named, in the US.

I think I disagree. Unless the address matching has greatly improved, putting cardinals on named highways where the cardinals are not typically used for address searches causes problems. Besides if this is not worldwide guidance, then the BDP should still be designed with the idea that there will be divided highways with the same name on both carriageways.

PesachZ wrote:I will argue that I believe with the information above we have a very solid of how and when BDP today. Like anything in the routing engine, especially penalties, they are always in a state of potential flux. Therefore when we know that a specific limitation is only implemented due to processing constraints, as opposed to intended operation, it is prudent to assume they may improve the process to more accurately meet their intent at some point in the future. We therefore when designing guidance should do so in a manner that is compatible with the operation today, as well as the intent. This will give us configurations that work 100% of the time.

But if the current operation works better than the "potential" operation, like it does for edsonajj's example, shouldn't we tell the developers that changing it is likely to cause more problems than it solves?
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby PesachZ » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:01 pm

CBenson wrote:
sketch wrote:Clearly that needs to be better stated, but it is best practice to use cardinals on every divided numbered highway, and every divided freeway however numbered or named, in the US.

I think I disagree. Unless the address matching has greatly improved, putting cardinals on named highways where the cardinals are not typically used for address searches causes problems. Besides if this is not worldwide guidance, then the BDP should still be designed with the idea that there will be divided highways with the same name on both carriageways.

PesachZ wrote:I will argue that I believe with the information above we have a very solid of how and when BDP today. Like anything in the routing engine, especially penalties, they are always in a state of potential flux. Therefore when we know that a specific limitation is only implemented due to processing constraints, as opposed to intended operation, it is prudent to assume they may improve the process to more accurately meet their intent at some point in the future. We therefore when designing guidance should do so in a manner that is compatible with the operation today, as well as the intent. This will give us configurations that work 100% of the time.

But if the current operation works better than the "potential" operation, like it does for edsonajj's example, shouldn't we tell the developers that changing it is likely to cause more problems than it solves?


The developers are aware of the issues presented by divided highways such as the example provided by edsonajj, and perhaps a fix for that behaviour may included in some future update. But at the very least I can assure you they have acknowledged that it presents an issue which could be handled better.

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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby sketch » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:09 pm

PesachZ wrote:The developers are aware of the issues presented by divided highways such as the example provided by edsonajj, and perhaps a fix for that behaviour may included in some future update. But at the very least I can assure you they have acknowledged that it presents an issue which could be handled better.

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And they can't really fix it if they don't have examples to work with.

But, regardless, at the very least, cardinals should be used on every freeway and expressway, and those are going to be responsible for 99.9% of every multi-segment U turn.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby voludu2 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:22 pm

There are cases where the cardinals don't make a lot of sense.

As in Vestal Parkway, in Vestal, NY, near Binghamton.

At main street, adresses count up in both the East and West direction.
So there is a 200 E Vestal Pkwy and a 200 W Vestal Pkwy

In order to avoid confusing drivers, the whole thing is now simply "Vestal Pkway" with "Vestal Pkwy E" and "Vestal Pkwy W" as alts for proper address searching.

Using "Vestal Pkwy E" and "Vestal Pkwy W" for the two driving directions would be OK with the drivers, but would make no sense for address searching. 217 Vestal Pkwy now could match
* 217 E Vestal Pkwy
* 217 E Vestal Pkwy
* 217 Vestal Pkwy (two options, since there is a 217 on each side of Main Street)

-----
But if the final cardinal were added, it could match
* 217 Vestal Pkwy E
* 217 Vestal Pkwy W
* 217 E Vestal Pkwy (same location as 217 Vestal Pkwy W)
* 217 W Vestal Pkwy (same location as 217 Vestal Pkway E)

So the choice, with Vestal Parkway, seems to be between getting the addresses correct and avoiding BDP issues. Which is more important?
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby edsonajj » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:46 pm

sketch wrote:But, regardless, at the very least, cardinals should be used on every freeway and expressway
Maybe in the US, but not in Mexico.

Over here, when a cardinal is used on a road name it is because the cardinal is part of the official name.
If we add cardinals to roads that don't have it in the name the main result would be more difficulty in searches.
Beside that, the practice for cardinals in official names is different than for most of the world. When a cardinal is added to the name it usually reflects what point it is closer to from the middle on the north.That means than on a north-south road, the "top half" is named north and the "bottom half" is named south.
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Re: [Page Update] Detour Prevention Mechanisms

Postby sketch » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:22 pm

edsonajj wrote:
sketch wrote:But, regardless, at the very least, cardinals should be used on every freeway and expressway
Maybe in the US, but not in Mexico.

Over here, when a cardinal is used on a road name it is because the cardinal is part of the official name.
If we add cardinals to roads that don't have it in the name the main result would be more difficulty in searches.
Beside that, the practice for cardinals in official names is different than for most of the world. When a cardinal is added to the name it usually reflects what point it is closer to from the middle on the north.That means than on a north-south road, the "top half" is named north and the "bottom half" is named south.

You are right, and I should have specified that I was only talking about the United States.

We do use cardinals in that way as well, not on freeways, but often on city streets depending on the city. We have S Claiborne Ave and N Claiborne Ave, and S Carrollton Ave and N Carrollton Ave, S Gayoso St and N Gayoso St... depending on which side of Canal Street they're on. And some places are even more crazy about it, especially out west. Portland OR is divided into quadrants, so every road has a name like NW Beaverdam Rd. And in Utah, it is done like this, but with numbers too, so you have roads with names like E 1600 S. But, that's only where addresses are used, and never on freeways.
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