Post Reply

Ramp departure angles vs. app closure visibility

Post by DwarfLord
What should ramp departure angles be? There is currently no hard documented spec. The best I can find is in the "ramp geometry and complexity" section of the global and USA Interchange wiki articles, which instructs to "extend the ramp naturally to create a junction with the road segment, typically at a 10–15° angle". Note that this guidance does not require a 10-15° angle, rather it suggests that the natural byproduct of a "natural" ramp extension will typically be 10-15°.

Why bring this up now? An update requestor took issue with a ramp fix of mine yesterday. I'd left the ramp departure angle at 7° -- not within the wiki's "typical" range, but only 3° outside it, and definitely a "natural" departure angle from the freeway and very common -- and was told the angle should be "bumped up" because the app will fail to make such a slight departure angle available for closure.

This brought up the following questions:

1. If editors should apply un-natural (?) ramp departure angles to compensate for an issue in the app, why isn't it in the wiki?

2. If our wiki is wrong, what is the most correct (un-natural?) departure angle for the purpose of clarifying the app closure screen? 20°? 30°? 40°? Reductio ad absurdum, one could use a 90° angle micro-dogleg and then an instruction override to preserve the "exit" command :twisted: I'm guessing nobody wants that! But it does offer maximum separability of turn arrows on the closure screen.

3. Should the editing community modify (hack?) ramp exits everywhere to work around this shortcoming in the app, or should we ensure that Waze understands the problem and then wait (and wait, and wait, and wait...) for them to improve the app's closure system (which I believe is already understood to be buggy in other ways and in need of attention)?
DwarfLord
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
Posts: 2512
Has thanked: 1065 times
Been thanked: 1451 times

POSTER_ID:16850907

1

Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
There seem to be 2 distinct schools of thought on this:

1. Those who prioritize natural physical geometry.

2. Those who prioritize app-closure accessibility.

Not sure I'm familiar with either side enough to render an opinion on which is more correct, but I can say that, in the northeastern regions, this varies greatly based mostly on the dispositions of each state's SM teams.

It's really frustrating actually, because when you edit from state to state, you get completely different rules and experiences for what otherwise really is the same thing.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 512 times
Send a message

Post by tonestertm
There has been much discussion and disagreement on this topic in the past, leading to the vague recommendation you see on that page. There was the usual "make a small hack to make the app actually work" argument vs. the "don't hack the map, leave it broken and thus force Waze to fix it" camp. In addition, there are incidental reports that, even with a larger angle, the app can still fail to make an arrow tappable.

Since that discussion, there were a few updates to the Closure feature in the app, but as you've noted, it's still not solid. Waze app development has been very clearly informed of this issue but, AFAIK, does not intend to devote any resources to modifying this feature further in the near future.

IIRC, the vague wording was included for those who wanted a larger angle recommendation, but I could easily be showing my bias in that memory.

IMHO, 15° should be a bare minimum, but there will almost certainly be others who will shout me down on that.

Another portion of the argument at the time was that micro-doglegs were unacceptable hacks, enabling Waze to avoid fixing problems. Since then, micro-dogleg usage has become a more accepted practice, yet we recently received the TIO tool, so now we, theoretically, "have" to replace all those hacks with the system "hack", but at least things have functioned in the mean time, and we don't need to frantically chase down all those situations where they are useful, instead replacing them as we come across them. We've used uDLs on SoCal freeway exits, with relative success, for several years now.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
tonestertm
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
Posts: 1439
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 836 times
Send a message
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/y7f2gsiomkpxbe6/CA_SM_Rocket_Shear_Alpha_50.png?dl=0
ARC for SW Region, USA
Global Champ, US Local Champ
The best editors Read the Wiki and read it often. Learn the proper way to handle URs. Don't draw another Place until you read this!