Driveways

Moderator: Unholy

Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:03 pm

sketch wrote:
AndyPoms wrote:
sketch wrote:The point is that we're making a clear set of rules, rather than allowing each editor to make their own. And drive-thrus are mapped, just not as private roads, so they're not under the ambit of our discussion.

Drive-thrus fall under the "Small Parking Lots" clause and are NOT mapped.
Which is changing. Read Alan's post above. We're discussing updating the Wiki to standards that actually work. Lets not use outdated existing Wiki thinking in our discussion.


So, to avoid confusion, should "Do NOT map commercial "drive-thrus"" be changed to ""Drive-thrus" - Refer to guidelines for "Parking Lot Roads""? In my opinion, and since such links are a key strength of Wikis, it's better to refer people to the appropriate guidance if they thought a drive-thru might be a "driveway" and apparently missing.
JJLatWayz
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 10:21 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:40 pm

jondrush wrote:
1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property.

I think the minimum should be 10m. I altered some other comments for grammar and split 2a into two topics to discuss separately.


If you change "do NOT map driveways less than 5 meters long that serve a single address or property" to "do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property", that would seem to lower the consensus and change it from an agreed rule to a general guideline.

Does anyone disagree that a driveway with parameters; 1) less than 5 meters and 2) serving a single address, should never be mapped?

Even if everyone agrees with the 10 meter change, by inserting the "or", it implies a driveway serving a single address should never be mapped regardless of length. Which would further erode consensus on such a rule. With the combined parameters as a rule, it's easy to tell an editor to stop adding every residential driveway along every street.

Perhaps it could be a rule just to say "5 meters" regardless of how many addresses are served by that driveway, and "10 meter/single address" is a rule of its own.
JJLatWayz
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 10:21 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:45 pm

russblau wrote:Really? 10 meters is still a pretty trivial driveway. ... [5 meters is] a ridiculously low cutoff.


I'm not disputing that. If 5 meters is ridiculously low, then it should be easy to get unanimous consensus to create an actual rule. If everyone agrees "10 meters" regardless of the number of addresses should never be mapped, great. I don't think I've been around long enough to cast a vote, but I have done enough editing and driving and using competing sat/nav to offer an opinion.

By the way, when I said "5 meters", I was thinking of physical distance, not virtual. The length of your driveway is the length from the edge of the street or public right-of-way, not the length from the center line of the road. So a literal 5 meter driveway, like my own, can not hold 2 cars parked end-to-end. At 5 meters, there is no room for confusion. If you've reached the closest spot on my street to my house, you could not possibly be confused about how to get to the right house. Having my driveway on the map can NOT benefit any aspect of Waze and NOT have my driveway would not harm Waze. It would indeed be ridiculous and I think everyone would agree. Even with multiple addresses off a 5 meter driveway, getting lost in the car is virtually impossible.
JJLatWayz
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 10:21 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:47 pm

sketch wrote:A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.


Sadly, an F-150 does not fit in many of the driveways in my neighborhood. And people with tilt-up garage doors have even Camry-sized cars impeding the sidewalk.

sketch wrote:Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.


Perhaps. It just seems like there are some elite level users here who might support, while other users at the same level will veto driveways based on a personal preference that is a "rule" in their mind but not defacto. I personally agree a 10M driveway is too short to need mapping. So maybe it should be "do NOT map driveways less than 10M that serve a single address" and add a guideline of "Avoid mapping driveways less than 100M that serve a single address". Should the first rule be "Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no rule against it."?
JJLatWayz
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 10:21 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:18 pm

CBenson wrote:My 2 cents.


I second those thoughts without qualification.
JJLatWayz
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 10:21 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Driveways

Postby jondrush » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:03 pm

1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
a. Map driveways that serve multiple distinct addresses or properties.
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property.
c. Mapped driveways should be marked as "Private Road".

2. General agreement ("Guidelines"?)
a. Map driveways over 50 meters
a2. Map driveways if Waze might confuse being on that driveway for being on an adjacent street or vice-versa.
b. Map driveways if the address coordinates are likely to route to an adjacent road that is inaccessible to the address.
d. Do NOT map driveways just to resolve a UR or system generated error.
e. Do NOT map driveways just because they appear on other mapping services.

3. No current consensus ("Things to consider"?)
a. Name the driveway according to the street to which it's attached.
b. For named driveways, add house numbers.

I think the minimum should be 10m. I altered some other comments for grammar and split 2a into two topics to discuss separately.
Keeping the Waze maps tidy since 2009
Northeast Region Assistant Coordinator
jondrush User Page
Image
jondrush
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 2571
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA
Has thanked: 182 times
Been thanked: 474 times

Re: Driveways

Postby jondrush » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:01 pm

Yeah, I boofed that one. I should have removed the "or single driveway" as the exceptions are covered.

I chose 10 meters because that seems to be the magical limit below which Waze ignores/gets confused by a segment. I don't create 10 m segments anywhere.
Keeping the Waze maps tidy since 2009
Northeast Region Assistant Coordinator
jondrush User Page
Image
jondrush
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 2571
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA
Has thanked: 182 times
Been thanked: 474 times

Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Here was the last summary that I saw and I think I have updated based on comments:

1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
a. Map driveways that serve multiple distinct addresses or properties.
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long.
c. Do NOT map driveways that serve a single address or property unless covered below.
c. Mapped driveways should be marked as "Private Road".

2. General agreement ("Guidelines"?)
a. Map driveways over 50 meters
a2. Map driveways if Waze might confuse being on that driveway for being on an adjacent street or vice-versa.
a3. Map a driveway if it has its own street name and at least one address is assigned to that name, regardless of length.
b. Map driveways if the address coordinates are likely to route to an adjacent road that is inaccessible to the address.
d. Do NOT map driveways just to resolve a UR or system generated error.
e. Do NOT map driveways just because they appear on other mapping services.
f. Do NOT delete a driveway that you think does not meet the standards without trying to contact the creator of the segment first.
g. Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no recommendation not to map it without coming to the forums to discuss your unique situation so we can get consensus.

3. No current consensus ("Things to consider"?)
a. Name the driveway according to the street to which it's attached.
b. For named driveways, add house numbers.


2a3. I disagree with this since a road with a name is a road and should be mapped since it is likely to have addresses (even one) that cannot otherwise be reached.

2d. I disagree with this as a general guideline. I think it would depend upon the situation, like Waze seeing a car driving off the road and then snapping to an adjacent road nearby giving a "roads not connected" MP.

2f. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

2g. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

3a. If a driveway has no name, it should not be named. Names are for roads that have a visible sign that drivers can see in order to know where to turn (excluding when a sign is knocked down of course). Ehud told us not to kludge things in the map just to get something to work because then we have to undo all that is incorrect once they fix it.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 979 times
Been thanked: 1116 times

Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:17 am

mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:I think you misread 2a3. It does say to map any driveway that is named. :)

Perhaps Kent was saying that if a driveway has a street name, it is a street, not a driveway.

Correct.

Riamus wrote:I'm also of the opinion that 2d can be questionable. It may be better to word it as "In general, do not map..." or something like that. For most cases, it probably shouldn't be mapped just to resolve a UR or MP, but there may be valid reasons to map it.

I think that would be a good alternate wording.

Riamus wrote:And I agree that 3a should not be done. Not only is it not correct, but it makes the map look bad. I've seen maps where every side street or driveway shown on it had the same name as the road. You couldn't really tell what parts were actually roads and which parts were driveways or which parts may be other roads with or without a name. It just creates a mess.

Based on mapcat's comments I think we three are pretty unanimous so far.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 979 times
Been thanked: 1116 times

Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:35 pm

mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:Ok. Though I'd still say that it would be a private road, which would be the same mapping as a driveway since we don't have a driveway road type. If someone pays to get their driveway named, it doesn't make it a public street.

IMO if it has a name, it is not a driveway, so if it is private, call it a private road, and if it is public, call it a street. Just not a driveway. ;)

I believe mapcat is saying that if a road has a name and is behind a gate or marked as private, it is not a driveway, but merely a private road. If it is named and publicly accessible it is not a driveway, but a street. However, since we don't have a driveway designator, I'm not sure this argument is important because it is either a street or private road.

However I would not recommend naming the "Private Road / Driveway" unless the name it is clearly visible to the driver as they approach the road in question.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 979 times
Been thanked: 1116 times

PreviousNext

Return to Wiki Updates and Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chinf