Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:32 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
Riamus wrote:Really? Ok, then... as long as it's an official sign regardless of color.

Just for reference:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=52943864

I knew Oregon had some strange Ducks. :)
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:07 pm

sketch wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:The discussion then rather turns around where @sketch and @kentsmith9 appear to go back on the previous advice and advocate for naming private roads, after which I chime in again about private roads and parking lots. If we follow the latest advice from sketch and kent, then we'd be naming every parking lot road too, something I completely disagree with.

Having the (current) correct stop-point for an address be on the private (unnamed) road or parking lot segment is not reason enough to start naming all of them. This goes against what we've been asked by Ehud: not to kludge the map. We do still need to, but when it comes to this, I see no point. Waze doesn't use internal addresses and stop-points now, and likely won't for quite some time. As has been mentioned on the addressing topic several times in other threads, Waze has to make the stop point more flexible first. Otherwise, their stop-point routing will fail to get people to the right locations.

Sorry, I must have misread or misinterpreted this or another related proposal as to require the match-naming of actually-unnamed driveways, essentially to kludge internal addresses into working. I was enforcing that without really thinking about it.

You're right I think, internal addresses should be implemented either fully or not at all.

Alan, I reread my posts and I don't see where sketch and I proposed naming parking lot roads, so maybe there is a word choice problem I don't recognize. I definitely do not support naming PLot roads, so maybe we can add a bullet to our page that specifically calls that out.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:08 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:It was this that I picked up on: "...if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped."

sketch also wrote "Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named 'driveways' as I see it."

This caught my eye because it isn't clear what is meant by the "roadway is named" and has addresses associated. Because lots of editors have already named private roads which don't actually have a name, but they do have addresses associated with the main road. And we've talked here and I've read other threads where editors are advocating naming private unnamed driveways after the main roadway because then they can set addresses and a proper stop point.

I see. I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road. I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name and then the guidance would not make sense, so without names you at least get "follow the highlighted route" until you come to the main road. We should include this info in the writeup since it will look like a driveway on the road, but just happens to have a business and not a house.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:25 pm

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
http://local.safeway.com/md/gambrills-1596.html
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lon ... TFTTTTFTTT

Perfect examples where it appears the city actually named the roads separately inside what we would consider a parking lot and uses the names for addresses of the buildings. This is not the norm out in California for sure.

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.

I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:43 pm

Maybe when Alan replies in this thread he can remember the other thread for which I am mentioning. In the mean time here is an actual example of what I am talking about (and might even be the original example he and I were reviewing).

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.

http://leec-eb.reapplications.com/filec ... 3-2011.pdf
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:31 am

shellshock2872 wrote:Driveways should be to single houses not business, only to resident

Remember that we do not have a road type called "driveways", so this conversation is more about when to map driveways than when to call something a driveway.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:13 pm

I lost track of this one. I plowed through the 11 pages again and I believe I have captured our general consensus in this new Driveway page.

If anyone thinks I misunderstood any of the comments or recommendations in this thread when I translated the page let's discuss here so we can resolve it.

We can add some visuals of some of the examples. I think this thread has a number of good ones we can consider. If there are other layout recommendations please let me know. I tried to keep it as simple as possible.

I also added a note on Road Types leading back to this new page.

I don't recall if this was a USA only set of recommendations and the page should be noted as such, or do we believe it is universal enough?
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Driveways

Postby mapcat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:20 am

This topic suggests that a wiki entry for driveways would be useful (for NA, or universally).

Guidance for driveways as it currently exists (subject to change pending discussion):
- Driveways should always be private roads.
- Don't map private driveways serving single residences or businesses, unless they are at least 50m long.
- Don't map driveways just to make map problems go away.
- Map driveways when they serve multiple residences. Name them according to the street they lead from, and add house numbers for each residence.

Edit 6 Aug: removed business drive-thrus, set minimum length at 50m.
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Re: Driveways

Postby mapcat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:39 pm

ncc1701v wrote:Driveways that are a bit long and are parallel to a public road, since Waze might think a vehicle in the driveway is on the road.

Maybe. How often would that scenario arise? There are many driveways like that, but the likelihood of anyone sitting on one of them often enough to corrupt speed data seems very small.
Riamus wrote:The house location is very close to another road without access to that road so that correct directions can be provided. This may go away once we are using entirely internal address mapping using the stop points.

Not always, since this argument could be used to defend really short driveways in dense developments.
The driveway is named with an official street sign (not a custom sign).

IMO it would cease to be a driveway if it had an official name.
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Re: Driveways

Postby mapcat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:44 pm

Here's what I'm talking about: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... TTTTTTTTTT

Some of the houses at the edge of the development are closer to the surrounding roads than they are to the roads in front of them. Based on where the data points for each house are in Google or Bing are, Waze might attempt to route you to the wrong road. Adding driveways for each of the houses in that situation would solve that problem, but would look horrible and would lead to far more problems than it solved.
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