Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:04 pm

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.
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Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:26 pm

sketch wrote:I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

No, because it will say that also when navigating you out of the mall and that makes no sense. It certainly would be more confusing to be told to turn right and left four time at the "name of the mall" rather than the street name you are heading towards. What we need to have Waze do, rather than kludge the map, is nav instructions need to say "towards" instead of "at." And his has been discussed a lot before.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.


That would be why you would not name the street based on the name of the mall. If the street doesn't have a name, don't name it and you don't have this problem. If the street is named, then there is nothing wrong with the instructions saying to turn onto XX Road because that is exactly what you're doing whether you are entering or exiting the parking lot.


I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.


Right. I did not suggest using the mall name. As mentioned above your quote, only name roads that have names. Do not put in fake names, such as the name of the mall. It is really never a good idea to falsify the data. Name a street if it is named. Do not name the street if it is not named.

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.


As mentioned above, that makes exiting the mall not make any sense. If the road is named, then it makes sense to say to turn onto the road of that name than to say to turn onto some other road. If I'm going to the police station and the road leading to the parking lot is called Prison Way, the instruction should be to turn onto Prison Way and not to turn onto City Police Station. There isn't any reason why malls should be different.

As far as instances where there isn't a named road at the entrance, then the directions may pull the name of the first named segment and that's more of a matter of bad implementation than anything else. We should not fake the road names just because of that. It would be pretty easy to just have Waze not say a street name if the next segment is an unnamed parking lot road. If you're turning from one parking lot road to another parking lot road that is not named, just say "Turn Right" or "Turn Left." If turning from a parking lot road onto a named road, then include the name in the directions. The entrance to a parking lot should be a parking lot road unless it's an actual street and an actual street should have a name, so that should work in all instances when the map is set up correctly.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
sketch wrote:I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

No, because it will say that also when navigating you out of the mall and that makes no sense. It certainly would be more confusing to be told to turn right and left four time at the "name of the mall" rather than the street name you are heading towards. What we need to have Waze do, rather than kludge the map, is nav instructions need to say "towards" instead of "at." And his has been discussed a lot before.

What Waze arguably needs to fix first is what happens when there are more navigation instructions but no more names. If I get off the interstate on a ramp that says "to Causeway Blvd S" and the next turn is into an unnamed parking lot, "to Causeway Blvd S" stays on the screen all the way to the end, or at least all the way until you're in the parking lot. Changing "at" to "towards" would fix it for all other instances of unnamed roads—ramps, at-grade connectors—leading to named roads, but it won't fix this, which is far more confusing. There must be an exception for the "take the next name" thing when there is no next name.

I don't see a bug filed in Bugzilla for either of these.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:54 pm

Riamus wrote:
I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.


As mentioned above, that makes exiting the mall not make any sense. If the road is named, then it makes sense to say to turn onto the road of that name than to say to turn onto some other road. If I'm going to the police station and the road leading to the parking lot is called Prison Way, the instruction should be to turn onto Prison Way and not to turn onto City Police Station. There isn't any reason why malls should be different.

Given a sign hanging from the traffic light that looks like this:
BollingerXing.png
BollingerXing.png (33.5 KiB) Viewed 650 times

I'm not seeing any difference in what the two of you are saying.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:02 pm

I'm talking about entering the mall and I think Riamus is talking first about exiting and then about entering.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Sorry. Yes, I'm referring to two separate issues. Entering and Exiting.

Entering:
When entering onto a named street, you should hear the instruction using that street name and not the name of the mall. When entering onto an unnamed street, you should just hear to turn and not receive a street name instruction at all. Although you may have an unofficial "name," I don't consider it correct to label the street as if it were an official name. If the city doesn't consider that to be official, neither should we. And by not doing that, we avoid the situation where I've seen the same "custom" name like that sign at every single entrance. It doesn't help drivers to have half a dozen different entrances/exits that all have the same "name". And a "custom" name at a mall is no different from someone going to a store and buying a "custom" sign and hanging it at the end of their driveway. That doesn't mean we have to name the driveway based on that sign.

Exiting:
When exiting, you do not want to hear the directions saying to turn onto the mall name if you're leaving the mall. That just really doesn't make sense. Instead, if you are exiting onto a named street that's part of the mall's parking lot structure, you should hear the directions stating the correct name of the street and not the mall's name. If you are exiting onto an unnamed street that's part of the mall's parking lot structure, then you should not hear any instruction mentioning the mall's name. Ideally, you also would not hear any street name going from unnamed to unnamed within a parking lot. However, we know that you'll pick up the first named segment when leaving the lot. Waze needs to fix that so it makes sense in the various situations where you should not hear the next named segment or else provide us with an option to name a street "null" in addition to unnamed and if there is a null street before getting to a named segment, it will not read the next named segment. You could then place that on all parking lot entrances that aren't named and avoid the problems entering or exiting the lots.
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Re: Driveways

Postby weeezer14 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:53 pm

(warning, hack approaching) Split the mall entrance into two one-way segments. Road in named Bollinger Crossing, road out un-named.

I can't think of the exact situation right now, but I know I have come across places where I wish a road segment could have different names depending on your approach. (And I don't think I used the above hack -- I just accepted a less than ideal state.)

I wonder if the elusive junction object would be our solution?
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:59 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:(warning, hack approaching) Split the mall entrance into two one-way segments. Road in named Bollinger Crossing, road out un-named.

I can't think of the exact situation right now, but I know I have come across places where I wish a road segment could have different names depending on your approach. (And I don't think I used the above hack -- I just accepted a less than ideal state.)

I've seen it done, like here.

I'll also note where the road naming at the Annapolis Mall has evolved to. There is a named ring road, but the rest of the parking lot roads are unnamed. Thus, when entering the mall you are given instructions to turn at "Annapolis Mall." When in leaving the mall, you are given instruction to turn at "Annapolis Mall" to get to the ring road, but then to turn at the street you exit to to leave the ring road. I don't think anyone planned this, but it works well enough that no one has changed it recently.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:22 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:(warning, hack approaching) Split the mall entrance into two one-way segments. Road in named Bollinger Crossing, road out un-named.

I can't think of the exact situation right now, but I know I have come across places where I wish a road segment could have different names depending on your approach. (And I don't think I used the above hack -- I just accepted a less than ideal state.)

I wonder if the elusive junction object would be our solution?

I thought of suggesting exactly that, but I've suggested enough hacks recently that I decided to play it cool. :?

CBenson wrote:I've seen it done, like here.

I'll also note where the road naming at the Annapolis Mall has evolved to. There is a named ring road, but the rest of the parking lot roads are unnamed. Thus, when entering the mall you are given instructions to turn at "Annapolis Mall." When in leaving the mall, you are given instruction to turn at "Annapolis Mall" to get to the ring road, but then to turn at the street you exit to to leave the ring road. I don't think anyone planned this, but it works well enough that no one has changed it recently.

That actually sounds pretty good...
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