Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:07 pm

The point is that we're making a clear set of rules, rather than allowing each editor to make their own. And drive-thrus are mapped, just not as private roads, so they're not under the ambit of our discussion.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:18 pm

AndyPoms wrote:
sketch wrote:The point is that we're making a clear set of rules, rather than allowing each editor to make their own. And drive-thrus are mapped, just not as private roads, so they're not under the ambit of our discussion.

Drive-thrus fall under the "Small Parking Lots" clause and are NOT mapped.
Which is changing. Read Alan's post above. We're discussing updating the Wiki to standards that actually work. Lets not use outdated existing Wiki thinking in our discussion.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:06 pm

Riamus wrote:Regarding drive-thrus, my opinion is simply that 1) mapping them prevents problems, and 2) you should worry more about fixing problems than worrying about whether or not you think it's too cluttered, and 3) unless auto-zoom is disabled, you aren't going to even see the parking lot roads if you're at about 25-30 mph unless you are navigating and a turn is coming up. If you're in a very slow part of a city, you may see them more often, but you'll also be going so slowly that you still won't see that many on the screen at the same time. If you're going fast enough to matter, then they won't be showing up anyhow. Yes, we want them made less visible. I've suggested using just a centerline for them. But as long as mapping one prevents problems - bad speed data and avoiding map problems - then I think it's a good idea to map them. Just keep pushing hard for changing the display of those roads. For that matter, we already can change color schemes... get Waze to put the width of roads into the configuration as well instead of being hard coded. Then everyone can have what they want for the display.

Not to mention that drive-thrus don't look anything like regular roads on the map. I look at a map with mapped drive-thrus and I think "there must be a McDonald's there".

Making parking lot roads less obvious is gonna take more work than we thought, though. Road width is actually modifiable in the theme files, but parking lot roads don't have their own display type. It's shared with a couple other types. And we don't want private roads made smaller.

JJLatWayz wrote:I'm not disputing that. If 5 meters is ridiculously low, then it should be easy to get unanimous consensus to create an actual rule. If everyone agrees "10 meters" regardless of the number of addresses should never be mapped, great. I don't think I've been around long enough to cast a vote, but I have done enough editing and driving and using competing sat/nav to offer an opinion.

By the way, when I said "5 meters", I was thinking of physical distance, not virtual. The length of your driveway is the length from the edge of the street or public right-of-way, not the length from the center line of the road. So a literal 5 meter driveway, like my own, can not hold 2 cars parked end-to-end. At 5 meters, there is no room for confusion. If you've reached the closest spot on my street to my house, you could not possibly be confused about how to get to the right house. Having my driveway on the map can NOT benefit any aspect of Waze and NOT have my driveway would not harm Waze. It would indeed be ridiculous and I think everyone would agree. Even with multiple addresses off a 5 meter driveway, getting lost in the car is virtually impossible.

A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.

Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal. Plus, I don't even know how it would be physically possible to fit more than one house on a driveway you can't even fit a single Crown Victoria in.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:56 am

mapcat wrote:
200.jpg
These driveways are 200-300m long, but the houses are still within view of the road.

100.jpg
OTOH, this house is less than 150m from the highway, but it's obscured by two rows of trees and a railway. Does its curving driveway belong on the map?

The northernmore(?) house of the two in the 200-300m example might get mistaken for the southernmore house if house numbers are live before the stop point function is working. A perpendicular drawn from the center of the roof of the north house will be nearer to the south house's driveway. Also, there does seem to be some plant life between the north house and the road...

On the other hand, the house with the curving driveway doesn't seem like it would be confused for any other house.

Not that I disagree with you, though. I do agree that simply "50 m or more from the road" isn't enough. 300 m is nearly a quarter mile, though...
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:06 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
russblau wrote:Well, I can tell you for a fact that at least in some places (Sussex Co DE) there are some private roads that have a name and at least one address assigned to them, but they sometimes have no visible sign and look like a driveway.

I think we all agree there are exceptions to every rule. If the city recognizes the name on a road and other maps recognize the name on the road, then I say we name it. Our point was if someone decided to name their driveway "Joe Rd", that is not a recognized name and we should not map the name.

Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named "driveways" as I see it.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:49 pm

Riamus wrote:Really? Ok, then... as long as it's an official sign regardless of color. I've only ever seen official street signs that are green, but whatever is official is what I meant; not those signs you can buy at a store. :)

All street signs in New Orleans are white-on-blue, and some neighborhoods in Metairie and Kenner have their own white-on-black signs. You know, for what it's worth. :D
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:32 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:The discussion then rather turns around where @sketch and @kentsmith9 appear to go back on the previous advice and advocate for naming private roads, after which I chime in again about private roads and parking lots. If we follow the latest advice from sketch and kent, then we'd be naming every parking lot road too, something I completely disagree with.

Having the (current) correct stop-point for an address be on the private (unnamed) road or parking lot segment is not reason enough to start naming all of them. This goes against what we've been asked by Ehud: not to kludge the map. We do still need to, but when it comes to this, I see no point. Waze doesn't use internal addresses and stop-points now, and likely won't for quite some time. As has been mentioned on the addressing topic several times in other threads, Waze has to make the stop point more flexible first. Otherwise, their stop-point routing will fail to get people to the right locations.

Sorry, I must have misread or misinterpreted this or another related proposal as to require the match-naming of actually-unnamed driveways, essentially to kludge internal addresses into working. I was enforcing that without really thinking about it.

You're right I think, internal addresses should be implemented either fully or not at all.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:12 pm

Something does need to be done, though, about the way the client handles unnamed parking lot roads in the navigation instructions... I guess we won't be able to do anything about that until the client can see the difference between parking lot roads and streets.

Or does it have to? Does the routing server give the text of the instructions to the client, too?

Either way, I don't recall seeing anything about it on Bugzilla.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:04 pm

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
sketch wrote:I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

No, because it will say that also when navigating you out of the mall and that makes no sense. It certainly would be more confusing to be told to turn right and left four time at the "name of the mall" rather than the street name you are heading towards. What we need to have Waze do, rather than kludge the map, is nav instructions need to say "towards" instead of "at." And his has been discussed a lot before.

What Waze arguably needs to fix first is what happens when there are more navigation instructions but no more names. If I get off the interstate on a ramp that says "to Causeway Blvd S" and the next turn is into an unnamed parking lot, "to Causeway Blvd S" stays on the screen all the way to the end, or at least all the way until you're in the parking lot. Changing "at" to "towards" would fix it for all other instances of unnamed roads—ramps, at-grade connectors—leading to named roads, but it won't fix this, which is far more confusing. There must be an exception for the "take the next name" thing when there is no next name.

I don't see a bug filed in Bugzilla for either of these.
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