[Page update] At Grade Connectors

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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby qwaletee » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:56 pm

deeploz wrote:Except if I've missed a post in another thread, I've notice a set of unexpected changes on this wiki page performed on May 28th.

I would like to draw you attention on it and to get an community approval on these changes that don't seem to be all on the cosmetic facet (there is some rephrasing, but there is also some content addition and new statements)


You missed another change in the past day that was flat out wrong (tick "None," not tick "No Name" - the None box causes No Name to be displayed in the panel when you are not editing).

Ottonomy's changes are mostly wording clarifications, but some of them don't really improve things. Also, the Garden State Parkway has been upgraded, so the example he was editing may no longer reflect today's reality. It should be replaced with a different example.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby deeploz » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:17 pm

Except if I've missed a post in another thread, I've notice a set of unexpected changes on this wiki page performed on May 28th.

I would like to draw you attention on it and to get an community approval on these changes that don't seem to be all on the cosmetic facet (there is some rephrasing, but there is also some content addition and new statements)
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:42 pm

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... s=68652365

The names have been changed to protect the innocent :D
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby PesachZ » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:51 am

DwarfLord wrote:I updated the figure to add the clarification but although I see the updated image in the preview -- and I even see it in the history at the bottom of the page as I write this! -- it seems to be invisible in the thread (the forum code is finicky about images, isn't it...?). Here it is again.

AGC-question-revised.jpg


(EDIT: oooookay, now that I post this the revised image does appear in my earlier post. Rather than remove this instance and potentially break things again I'll leave it. Sorry for the redundancy.)

can you provide a PL to this AGC please?
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:06 pm

sketch wrote:A user has a duty to look at the damn road when using GPS.

You won't get any argument from me on that count! 8-)

The example was not meant to complain that Waze's turn instructions are too early; apologies if it sounded that way. Rather, it was meant to show that creating or retaining an AGC for the sole purpose of advancing (hacking?) the turn alert timing may not be much benefit, at least not with the nav as it is currently tuned. In fact, it suggests that AGCs could potentially be counterproductive in cases where turn alerts are plenty early enough.

All of this arises because parts of my area -- especially parts with large but unsplit roads -- seem to enjoy a "when in doubt, put in an AGC" ethos. New editors largely created the AGCs simply to fill what looked to them like a vacuum on the aerials, but once installed, their presence reinforced the ethos, and thick and fast they came at last, and more, and more, and more.

The completion of FC here seems a good excuse to review all these AGCs with a critical eye, so that's a-what I'm a-doin.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:29 pm

I am not gonna blame this on Waze. A user has a duty to look at the damn road when using GPS.

Waze says "turn right on Street Name" and you turn on "Different Road", that's your fault for looking neither at street signs nor at the Waze display. One or the other and you'd know better than to make that turn.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:43 pm

Another example suggesting that, with the latest app & nav situation, early turn guidance may not be as necessary as it used to be. In this case the driver turned right 427 m too early (!!) and again, no AGC was even involved.

427 m early.jpg
Driver turns right 427 m early
(69.93 KiB) Downloaded 469 times
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:45 pm

I updated the figure to add the clarification but although I see the updated image in the preview -- and I even see it in the history at the bottom of the page as I write this! -- it seems to be invisible in the thread (the forum code is finicky about images, isn't it...?). Here it is again.

AGC-question-revised.jpg
AGC -- to keep or not to keep?
(83.69 KiB) Downloaded 482 times


(EDIT: oooookay, now that I post this the revised image does appear in my earlier post. Rather than remove this instance and potentially break things again I'll leave it. Sorry for the redundancy.)
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:19 pm

To clarify one point on your decision to remove the AGC in your first example, the commit point is actually the solid white line 20-30 meters near the gas station driveway point before the turn, not the hard concrete curb.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:02 am

Here's an example of an AGC that I need to decide whether to promote to mH; promote and shorten; or remove.

AGC-question-revised.jpg
AGC -- to keep or not to keep?
(83.69 KiB) Downloaded 483 times


I'm thinking remove, because:
  • The distance from the commit point (about even with the gas station entrance) to the center of the intersection is 56 m. PhantomSoul's perspective is that 50 m or less is just noise to Waze, so there is no point in shortening this AGC to match the commit point. If one were to shorten it one may as well delete it.
  • The physical separation begins only a few meters from the intersection. If I understand sketch's perspective that is nowhere near adequate justification for an AGC based only on the physical characteristics of the turn lane.
  • The origin road is 4 lanes one direction, but the destination road is only 2. It seems unlikely to throw a missing-road MP and we generally are not that concerned about this situation throwing MPs anyway.
  • That means the only reason to keep the AGC at all is to advance the turn warning. It is hard to say how necessary that is; my guess is, not very; see the screenshot I attach at the end of this post.
  • A complicating factor here is the right turn into the gas station which comes physically EARLIER than the intersection but would be announced LATER than the AGC, due to the AGC's crossover! If the right turn to the gas station doesn't need any AGC for advance warning to drivers, why does the right turn at the intersection need the advance warning? Granted a lot more drivers will head for the intersection than for the gas station.
  • One could tie the gas station entrance off the AGC instead of the main road, but then the driver hears "stay right, then turn right" which IMHO would be confusing to a driver heading for the gas station.

So, can someone persuade me that this AGC should be retained?

Before saying anything, take a look at this recent UR trace. This is the case I referred to earlier, where a driver turned right by accident 161 m early, and there was not even any AGC involved.

DriverTurnsEarly.jpg
Driver turns 161 m early
(145.38 KiB) Downloaded 489 times
Last edited by DwarfLord on Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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