[Page update] At Grade Connectors

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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:02 pm

As you might imagine, I don't know the answer to your questions. I have no objection to trying to get more information. However, if the reason to use ramps is just that we presumed the ramp to be type agnostic and now we are told it is not, then it seems we need to change to our guidance for using the ramp type.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:55 pm

CBenson wrote:We have agreed to several exceptions to not using ramps for at-grade-connectors. The wiki currently lists Median U turn intersections, Restricted crossing U turns, Displaced left turn intersections, Jughandles and signed numbered exits as exceptions. My understanding of the upside to these exceptions is the suppression of the segment name on the map. I had though the only downside would be possible display issues with ramps.

However, in response to the routing issue raised here, the waze routing team responded that this is a
3 road type issue, we have a high penalty when you're on major highway -> exit to ramp -> enter to primary street, to solve it try to change the ramp to primary street or major highway


Accordingly, I believe we need to revisit the exceptions to not using ramps for AGCs. At least where there is no name on the segment (like the jughandle at issue in the other thread), the normal street types would be better options.

We gotta talk to Waze about this. The reason Ramp was chosen was not only to suppress street names but also because Ramp is presumed to be type-agnostic, essentially, so it's simpler than using the AGC rules to set the names on MUTI segments, for example (which is what I was originally doing). Using Ramp works the same if it's Major and Major or Major and PS or whatever.

What is the reason for this penalty? Does that mean the penalty will be given whenever getting off of an expressway onto a primary street? Why?
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:45 pm

PesachZ wrote:Another option to splits the street name display is to add an extra node on the AGC 5m in, and only name that first 5m section with the long name

I agree unless we have instances where the addition of a second segment causes a different result in the special U-turn. I don't recall if some special U-turns required adding or removing an extra segment though.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:36 pm

CBenson wrote:We have agreed to several exceptions to not using ramps for at-grade-connectors. The wiki currently lists Median U turn intersections, Restricted crossing U turns, Displaced left turn intersections, Jughandles and signed numbered exits as exceptions. My understanding of the upside to these exceptions is the suppression of the segment name on the map. I had though the only downside would be possible display issues with ramps.

However, in response to the routing issue raised here, the waze routing team responded that this is a
3 road type issue, we have a high penalty when you're on major highway -> exit to ramp -> enter to primary street, to solve it try to change the ramp to primary street or major highway


Accordingly, I believe we need to revisit the exceptions to not using ramps for AGCs. At least where there is no name on the segment (like the jughandle at issue in the other thread), the normal street types would be better options.

Another option to splits the street name display is to add an extra node on the AGC 5m in, and only name that first 5m section with the long name

Sent using Tapatalk for Android 4.4.2
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:33 pm

We have agreed to several exceptions to not using ramps for at-grade-connectors. The wiki currently lists Median U turn intersections, Restricted crossing U turns, Displaced left turn intersections, Jughandles and signed numbered exits as exceptions. My understanding of the upside to these exceptions is the suppression of the segment name on the map. I had though the only downside would be possible display issues with ramps.

However, in response to the routing issue raised here, the waze routing team responded that this is a
3 road type issue, we have a high penalty when you're on major highway -> exit to ramp -> enter to primary street, to solve it try to change the ramp to primary street or major highway


Accordingly, I believe we need to revisit the exceptions to not using ramps for AGCs. At least where there is no name on the segment (like the jughandle at issue in the other thread), the normal street types would be better options.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby qwaletee » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:12 pm

sketch wrote:I will be adding the exceptions (MUTI, RCUT, DLT, Jughandle) to this article to achieve parity with the Road types/USA article.

I'm not sure if the entirety of the content discussing those intersection styles should be placed here, as it can get kind of lengthy for some of them.

Also, should this page be made into a subpage of the junction style guide? It is, after all, a junction style issue.


Subpage sounds good, though it doesn't matter that much. Keep the summary in the main article as short as possible to avoid overloading the page, which I think is what you were saying you were inclined to do anyway.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:45 pm

I will be adding the exceptions (MUTI, RCUT, DLT, Jughandle) to this article to achieve parity with the Road types/USA article.

I'm not sure if the entirety of the content discussing those intersection styles should be placed here, as it can get kind of lengthy for some of them.

Also, should this page be made into a subpage of the junction style guide? It is, after all, a junction style issue.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:22 pm

I'm with sketch that I like the simpler form, but wouldn't stop using Waze by seeing one or the other.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby qwaletee » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:31 pm

sketch,

Subjective. I actually like the way it looks, both night and day. Your "tentacles" say to me "oh, look, that's how my road connects to the next, glad I can see the intersections to the smaller streets so clearly."

For pure aesthetics, I don't think it is ugly, either. Art, no, but ugly neither.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:38 am

Lots of images incoming. Bear with me.

Also, since these segments are new and in the middle of the lake, they haven't been driven. Please try to ignore the dots.

As you can see, the proposed change, to use the higher instead of the lower of the two types, will lead to a significantly uglier map. Worst would be when an MH and a Street intersect with AGCs, but MH/PS, mH/Street, and mH/PS will look particularly bad as well. MH/mH and PS/S intersections will also look worse, but less so. Further, the ugliness between (MH/mH) and (PS/S) is exacerbated in the night theme.

(Interestingly enough, all the worst-looking types are those which would give the "exit" instruction instead of "stay" for 'turns' under 44°.)

I created two intersections, each with four AGCs, to showcase the difference between the current rules and the proposed change. Both examples use MH and PS.

-----
DAY

3D
[ img ]
Near: proposed. Looks like the MH is growing tentacles and grabbing the PS.
Far: current rules. Blends in nicely to the map.

3D
[ img ]
Near: current rules. Not perfect of course, but not awful. Note a real intersection would probably appear a bit more symmetrical than this.
Far: proposed. Why is the intersecting road a different color for a few dozen feet on either side of the road I'm on?? At least, that's what it looks like.

2D
[ img ]
Top: proposed.
Bottom: current rules. Again, blends a lot more nicely than the alternative.

-----
NIGHT

3D
[ img ]
Near: proposed. Still looks like tentacles. More like space tentacles at night.
Far: current rules. Blends nicely. No weird growths or undue highlighting of the second intersection.

3D
[ img ]
Near: current rules. Blends reasonably well.
Far: proposed. The highlighting of MH (and mH) exacerbates the "weird growth" effect that is not present with the current rules.

2D
[ img ]
Top: proposed. Perhaps even worse in 2D?
Bottom: current rules. AGCs almost unnoticeable (which is a good thing).

-----
NIGHT, zoomed out

1
[ img ]

2
[ img ]

3
[ img ]
Near: current rules. Looks like one contiguous highway (which it is).
Far: proposed. Why are there bumps on the highway? What's growing out of the road?

See what I mean? Check it out in Livemap too, if you want.
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