[Page update] At Grade Connectors

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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby PesachZ » Thu May 29, 2014 12:12 am

sketch wrote:First of all, "doglegs" solves a different problem than changing the type of AGCs. A dogleg changes the instruction from "stay"/"exit" to "turn"; the type change would change some instances of "exit" to "stay".

So doglegs aren't going anywhere. Most AGCs should give "turn" instructions anyway, unless they are so far from the intersection that a "stay" and a later "turn" are both merited. An instruction besides "turn" is confusing, whether it's "stay" or "exit".

The type change would solve only one "problem" — where MH/mH to PS/S gives an "exit right" instead of a "stay to the right", more common now with the new road types system. Yes, "stay" is more correct than "exit" in certain of these situations (though in most such situations, "turn" is most correct).

I don't believe "exit" is really all that difficult to understand, though, so I don't really think it's necessary. But I recognize that not all agree.

I could support an exception only where it is necessary to preserve a "stay" instruction on the right. It'd look ungainly, but it'd be easier to detect and eradicate whenever the Junction Box does come. A total rewrite of the AGC rules is unnecessary and overbroad, would lead to an ugly map, would be extremely tedious to implement, and would serve no purpose other than to change a few "exit" instructions to "stay" instructions. We know the circumstances that lead to these, so we should tailor any exception to these situations. We chose to use the lower, not the higher, of the two types for a reason (because it works equally as well, and because the alternative looks like crap).

"Doglegs" should still be used wherever necessary. Road type has absolutely 0 to do with the difference between "turn" and "stay"/"exit".
agreed

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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby CBenson » Thu May 29, 2014 1:52 am

sketch wrote:A total rewrite of the AGC rules is unnecessary and overbroad, would lead to an ugly map, would be extremely tedious to implement, and would serve no purpose other than to change a few "exit" instructions to "stay" instructions.

Agreed, except for the "lead to an ugly map" as I'm not sure how a rewrite would lead to an uglier map than the current guidance does.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Thu May 29, 2014 8:31 pm

I'll show you after the next map update.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:38 am

Lots of images incoming. Bear with me.

Also, since these segments are new and in the middle of the lake, they haven't been driven. Please try to ignore the dots.

As you can see, the proposed change, to use the higher instead of the lower of the two types, will lead to a significantly uglier map. Worst would be when an MH and a Street intersect with AGCs, but MH/PS, mH/Street, and mH/PS will look particularly bad as well. MH/mH and PS/S intersections will also look worse, but less so. Further, the ugliness between (MH/mH) and (PS/S) is exacerbated in the night theme.

(Interestingly enough, all the worst-looking types are those which would give the "exit" instruction instead of "stay" for 'turns' under 44°.)

I created two intersections, each with four AGCs, to showcase the difference between the current rules and the proposed change. Both examples use MH and PS.

-----
DAY

3D
Image
Near: proposed. Looks like the MH is growing tentacles and grabbing the PS.
Far: current rules. Blends in nicely to the map.

3D
Image
Near: current rules. Not perfect of course, but not awful. Note a real intersection would probably appear a bit more symmetrical than this.
Far: proposed. Why is the intersecting road a different color for a few dozen feet on either side of the road I'm on?? At least, that's what it looks like.

2D
Image
Top: proposed.
Bottom: current rules. Again, blends a lot more nicely than the alternative.

-----
NIGHT

3D
Image
Near: proposed. Still looks like tentacles. More like space tentacles at night.
Far: current rules. Blends nicely. No weird growths or undue highlighting of the second intersection.

3D
Image
Near: current rules. Blends reasonably well.
Far: proposed. The highlighting of MH (and mH) exacerbates the "weird growth" effect that is not present with the current rules.

2D
Image
Top: proposed. Perhaps even worse in 2D?
Bottom: current rules. AGCs almost unnoticeable (which is a good thing).

-----
NIGHT, zoomed out

1
Image

2
Image

3
Image
Near: current rules. Looks like one contiguous highway (which it is).
Far: proposed. Why are there bumps on the highway? What's growing out of the road?

See what I mean? Check it out in Livemap too, if you want.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby qwaletee » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:31 pm

sketch,

Subjective. I actually like the way it looks, both night and day. Your "tentacles" say to me "oh, look, that's how my road connects to the next, glad I can see the intersections to the smaller streets so clearly."

For pure aesthetics, I don't think it is ugly, either. Art, no, but ugly neither.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:22 pm

I'm with sketch that I like the simpler form, but wouldn't stop using Waze by seeing one or the other.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby sketch » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:45 pm

I will be adding the exceptions (MUTI, RCUT, DLT, Jughandle) to this article to achieve parity with the Road types/USA article.

I'm not sure if the entirety of the content discussing those intersection styles should be placed here, as it can get kind of lengthy for some of them.

Also, should this page be made into a subpage of the junction style guide? It is, after all, a junction style issue.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby qwaletee » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:12 pm

sketch wrote:I will be adding the exceptions (MUTI, RCUT, DLT, Jughandle) to this article to achieve parity with the Road types/USA article.

I'm not sure if the entirety of the content discussing those intersection styles should be placed here, as it can get kind of lengthy for some of them.

Also, should this page be made into a subpage of the junction style guide? It is, after all, a junction style issue.


Subpage sounds good, though it doesn't matter that much. Keep the summary in the main article as short as possible to avoid overloading the page, which I think is what you were saying you were inclined to do anyway.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:33 pm

We have agreed to several exceptions to not using ramps for at-grade-connectors. The wiki currently lists Median U turn intersections, Restricted crossing U turns, Displaced left turn intersections, Jughandles and signed numbered exits as exceptions. My understanding of the upside to these exceptions is the suppression of the segment name on the map. I had though the only downside would be possible display issues with ramps.

However, in response to the routing issue raised here, the waze routing team responded that this is a
3 road type issue, we have a high penalty when you're on major highway -> exit to ramp -> enter to primary street, to solve it try to change the ramp to primary street or major highway


Accordingly, I believe we need to revisit the exceptions to not using ramps for AGCs. At least where there is no name on the segment (like the jughandle at issue in the other thread), the normal street types would be better options.
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Re: [Page update] At Grade Connectors

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:36 pm

CBenson wrote:We have agreed to several exceptions to not using ramps for at-grade-connectors. The wiki currently lists Median U turn intersections, Restricted crossing U turns, Displaced left turn intersections, Jughandles and signed numbered exits as exceptions. My understanding of the upside to these exceptions is the suppression of the segment name on the map. I had though the only downside would be possible display issues with ramps.

However, in response to the routing issue raised here, the waze routing team responded that this is a
3 road type issue, we have a high penalty when you're on major highway -> exit to ramp -> enter to primary street, to solve it try to change the ramp to primary street or major highway


Accordingly, I believe we need to revisit the exceptions to not using ramps for AGCs. At least where there is no name on the segment (like the jughandle at issue in the other thread), the normal street types would be better options.

Another option to splits the street name display is to add an extra node on the AGC 5m in, and only name that first 5m section with the long name

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