Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable roads

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:55 pm

daknife wrote:On that we can agree and that was my original point. Maybe I was misunderstanding but I read the conversation at that point as saying the Lincoln Hwy should be marked as such because of it's historical status, you said (my interpretation) nobody is keeping such designations for historical reasons, and so I pointed out a section of said Hwy that is not and should not be marked as Maj Hwy, even though it is part of the original hwy as built.

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I was simply saying that the section in question, which is part of US-30, should be marked as Major because it's part of US-30 (and because it's a principal arterial), not because it's part of the Lincoln Highway. What I meant was that they did not keep the US-30 designation simply because of the route's historical value.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Daknife » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Not entirely, in that area yes existing roads were linked together, but in many areas new roads were built, introducing a newer higher quality engineering.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Daknife » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:32 pm

On that we can agree and that was my original point. Maybe I was misunderstanding but I read the conversation at that point as saying the Lincoln Hwy should be marked as such because of it's historical status, you said (my interpretation) nobody is keeping such designations for historical reasons, and so I pointed out a section of said Hwy that is not and should not be marked as Maj Hwy, even though it is part of the original hwy as built.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Daknife » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:16 pm

A bit more on my example, my point was originally that some designations are kept and signed for historical purposes. The segment in question is not even a SR at this point (it's in Riverdale UT) much of the Historic Lincoln Hwy in that area is a SR, this segment has lost even that designation.

The Key is that the Lincoln Hwy is not part of the US Highway system, it isn't a local name, It is a National Historical route, but one that hpos frequently between road classifications, much of it's lenght it is US Hwy, other areas it is SR, other areas are part of the Interstate System (I-80 across the salt flats). Further the designated route has either been changed to match newer improved roads (like the Interstate in some areas) or has been downgraded all the way to residential street having a prior US route designation taken from it to be used on newer, better nearby arterials.

But the Lincoln Hwy, the first Highway, does still exist running coast to coast and carries the designation hwy, even if the street is not a hwy by today's standards.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby pumrum » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:16 pm

sketch wrote:I agree with you—though the scope of this overhaul was only drivable roads, and really public drivable roads. I intend to revisit the non-drivables sometime after this is committed


I forked this into the following thread with some ideas for when people are ready to discuss:

Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:48 pm

daknife wrote:US 89 Scenic is marked as such. So how it can be so marked and not be so is beyond me.

Like CBenson said — that route is called, and signed as, "US-89A". That's the route designation. Local names ("Fredonia-Vermilion Cliffs Scenic Road") have no bearing on road type. The only route designated as scenic is US-40 Scenic in Maryland. US-412 ALT in Oklahoma was called US-412 Scenic until 2012.

As to the other segment, it's not in competition with the Interstate or US 89, but with other arterial routes (I don't recall the SR designators at the moment. SR-73 and 114 are both almost 100 miles away from where I am referring to.
In this case were I to mark that section of road as a Major Hwy it would get routing preference over the Minor Hwy routes that are the arterials the one it comes off of is under construction and does see major slowdowns, the other end of that segment is a primary street and is a suggested detour, but not through that neighborhood, the detour is at a higher capacity intersection and connector, but if I suddenly change the segment to Maj Hwy, it WILL dump a lot more traffic onto a road that cannot and should not handle it.

Sorry, I assumed you were talking about American Fork. You'd have to show me what you're talking about. For starters, "Historic Lincoln Highway" is a local name, not a US route designation, so it has no bearing on road type, if that's what you're worried about.

CBenson wrote:As an aside in looking for US-89A signs in streetview, I got confused with state 89A and saw this sign, which makes it look like someone keeps routes around for their historical significance alone.

Well, not exactly. Some state highways have elected to mark "Historic Route 66", but US-66 was deleted by the AASHTO/FHWA/whatever in 1985.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby CBenson » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm

I was looking for US-89 Scenic signs and haven't found them yet. What I composed before your post was the following: I think the key is Russblau's point that what matters is how the highway is signed. It doesn't matter whether the road has some "scenic" or "national" designation if it isn't signed with a U.S. Route shield with that designation. Thus, US-89A should be treated like any US route because its signed that way. US-40 Scenic should be treated as scenic route because it is signed that way.

As an aside in looking for US-89A signs in streetview, I got confused with state 89A and saw this sign, which makes it look like someone keeps routes around for their historical significance alone.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Daknife » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:09 pm

US 89 Scenic is marked as such. So how it can be so marked and not be so is beyond me.

As to the other segment, it's not in competition with the Interstate or US 89, but with other arterial routes (I don't recall the SR designators at the moment. SR-73 and 114 are both almost 100 miles away from where I am referring to.
In this case were I to mark that section of road as a Major Hwy it would get routing preference over the Minor Hwy routes that are the arterials the one it comes off of is under construction and does see major slowdowns, the other end of that segment is a primary street and is a suggested detour, but not through that neighborhood, the detour is at a higher capacity intersection and connector, but if I suddenly change the segment to Maj Hwy, it WILL dump a lot more traffic onto a road that cannot and should not handle it.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:46 pm

daknife wrote:To bring back a somewhat dated point, simply to prove we can always find an exception in this wacky world.
sketch wrote:If you're suggesting to me that the AASHTO/Congress/US DOT keeps routes around for their historical significance alone, …
But they do in fact do so. I live a few blocks away from a seemingly quiet side street, mostly residential except at one end where it connects to a major arterial surface street. It doesn't look like anything but a residential street, except for the Red White and Blue Hwy signs that read Historic Lincoln Highway. The interstates chopped up segments of the LH and this one came to look like and be a residential street, if not for the sign I wouldn't ever guess that half mile stretch of road was in fact a US Hwy. I'm not going to mark it as such in Waze, because the residents would not appreciate a sudden influx of misrouted Wazers, nor would the Wazers appreciate the routing.


If the road really is so slow, then Wazers won't be routed that way. I don't know where everyone gets the idea that Waze will all of a sudden "misroute" Wazers all over the place just 'cause road types are higher. It's preposterous. Waze is still going to keep you on I-15 if it's the fastest route. But the US highway should still be available in case of a serious accident on I-15, a closure for freeway reconstruction, or anything else.

US-89 through that area is designated as a principal arterial - other (so, Major) through the area, anyway. So are SR-73 to the west and SR-114 to the south.

Keep your subjective ideas about what road types "should be" and implement this system and I'm absolutely confident you will see an improvement. That's kind of the point, and trust me: it works. Well.

As for US-89 ALT, I don't doubt that it's a scenic route, but it's not a "Scenic" route. There is only one route in the US Hwy system that is marked "Scenic", and it's US-40 Scenic in Maryland.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Daknife » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:37 pm

One more quick correction to a comment by Sketch on the last page. There is more than one scenic route. US-89 alt is also a scenic route, it goes from Kanab Utah south into the Grand Canyon (it's how you get to the North Rim park entrances) and crosses the Colorado down in the Canyon before rejoining 89 proper.

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