Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable roads

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Kartografer » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:34 pm

I tested the checkbox today on a road in my neighborhood, and although the road type Unpaved will cause routing avoidance, the checkbox does nothing.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby bgodette » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:29 pm

sketch wrote:4x4 would make most sense as a vehicle type (a la Taxi or HOV-3).

Brian, the issue at hand is essentially what we can/should tell editors to do. In a perfect world, during this transition, app & routing would honor both the road type and the check box, so we editors could start using the "unpaved" box alongside PS/mH types where appropriate for hybrid-FC reasons. But we can't do that until we can trust the box.
Exactly. As I said, they can't remove the type until the checkbox works. Guidance is currently unchanged from pre-checkbox because it currently doesn't do anything, but that can change at any time and go back and forth multiple times (eg JBs).
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:11 pm

Robert04101 wrote:Regarding the Road Type/Exceptions section:

WME now has Routing (Preferred/Neutral/Unfavored) that (supposedly) tweaks up or down the status of a segment, e.g. a Preferred PS is treated by the routing engine as a mH. Shouldn't we be using this mechanism to manage the exceptions discussed in this section, rather than actually reclassifying the road?

I think the answer to this is "yes", considering we would want to lock any deviation from FC higher than normal anyway. I brought this up a few weeks ago in some chats, but much to my surprise, when I checked, the routing preference setting wasn't in the wiki at all. How do you write guidance to use a tool that isn't documented?
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby herrchin » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:09 pm

The routing preference unfortunately locks the entire segment to rank 5, last I knew. Not just that attribute, so it's not without drawback.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Robert04101 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:49 pm

Regarding the Road Type/Exceptions section:

WME now has Routing (Preferred/Neutral/Unfavored) that (supposedly) tweaks up or down the status of a segment, e.g. a Preferred PS is treated by the routing engine as a mH. Shouldn't we be using this mechanism to manage the exceptions discussed in this section, rather than actually reclassifying the road?
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:04 pm

4x4 would make most sense as a vehicle type (a la Taxi or HOV-3).

Brian, the issue at hand is essentially what we can/should tell editors to do. In a perfect world, during this transition, app & routing would honor both the road type and the check box, so we editors could start using the "unpaved" box alongside PS/mH types where appropriate for hybrid-FC reasons. But we can't do that until we can trust the box.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby bgodette » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:13 pm

bretmcvey wrote:The checkbox isn't functional in the app from what I've seen. Original plans were to deprecate the type, but I'm not entirely sure that's still the plans.

We do have an ask out for more information from staff to better understand how things will ultimately work so we can revise guidance.
Well it can't be re-used without first converting all existing to something else + unpaved checkbox. Once the unpaved checkbox affects routing it's then possible to automatically re-type and checkbox all existing unpaved-type. What people are asking for as a type replacement, 4x4/high-clearance, isn't really a type and is just another property checkbox which also doesn't necessarily also imply unpaved.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby bretmcvey » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:47 am

The checkbox isn't functional in the app from what I've seen. Original plans were to deprecate the type, but I'm not entirely sure that's still the plans.

We do have an ask out for more information from staff to better understand how things will ultimately work so we can revise guidance.


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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:34 pm

DwarfLord wrote:Did Waze simply open up their code and do a global substitute of "Unpaved" for "Dirt Road / 4X4 Trail"? Including both the road type in the drop-down menu and the checkbox? Or something more elaborate than that?

Speaking of which, I'm still unclear on just what that checkbox does, if anything. And even more unclear why, when Waze changed the name of the road type, they changed the name of the checkbox to exactly the same thing. Typically UI design leans away from marking multiple controls with the exact same words, but I'm sure Waze has a good reason.

What's going to happen is the road type is going to be deprecated and eventually removed, and everything in it is going to be turned into a Street with the Unpaved check box checked. That's Waze's current plan, anyway.

What are we supposed to do? I don't know, I guess nothing yet. I have not tested whether "Avoid dirt roads" in the app will avoid things flagged as "unpaved" that are not set to the "unpaved" road type. So we can't recommend that, say, unpaved state highways are set to Minor Highway with Unpaved checked, even though that's the endgame here.

Many are clamoring for the ability to leave "4x4" as a road type and to give the app the ability to use 4x4 as a vehicle type for routing, as many parts of the world contain both unpaved-but-maintained and unpaved-and-not-maintained roads, the latter of which can save a lot of time but do require a 4x4 to travel. As of yet, staff is not very receptive to this idea.

Whether or not they do implement that dream of ours, it's too soon to change substantive guidance re: the checkbox unless we do some routing tests on the checkbox.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby Machete808 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:40 am

voludu2 wrote:Me too. The concepts give me a framework to hang all the details on.
We all have different learning styles.

In the short term, I'd like to see the already-proposed draft accepted.
After that, we can fine-tune the presentation.

It is possible that we might want to organize some of the pages into "quick reference how-to" and a more detailed discussion with the "why". We would benefit from input from someone who knows something about learning and learning styles. I think a fair # of editors claim some kind of executive function deficit. The community benefits if it is able to make it easy for everyone to learn.


I'm interested in the status/future of the dirt roads type, so sorry for this diversion...

But going back to the presentation issue and "bloat": Wouldn't using the collapsible sections (expand/contract) device help retain some of the rationale (which I also appreciate) and keep down the length for those who want "just the facts"?
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