[New Page] Median U-turn intersection

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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Thu May 29, 2014 12:13 am

Yeah that sounds best. Intersections, Special intersections, Interchanges, and maybe Special interchanges. And Controlling turn instructions.


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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Wed May 28, 2014 11:17 pm

These are very good pages.

Should they be on subpages? Is this stuff too long for sections?

BTW, "Between 1 and 44 degrees" in the DLT page should be changed to "Between 1 and 43 degrees" due to a recently-discovered imprecision in Junction Angle Info — "44" can mean either <44.5 (stay) or >44.5 (turn) by Waze.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:03 am

I think you're right about that — and honestly, as I was writing that post, I was thinking the same thing. I worded it "I think the plan was" so as to convey the message that we had been thinking of doing it that way, but I don't necessarily think it's best. I had the same thought about the interchange styles and formatting intersection styles similarly.

We'd been thinking of MUTI, RCUT, and Jughandle in the context of "at-grade connector exceptions" (i.e., when to use ramps for at-grade connectors), but really they're "types of intersections" with special rules. It'd make more sense for the at-grade connector page exceptions section to link to the appropriate subsections of the Junction Style Guide/Intersections page.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:45 am

CBenson wrote:Super-street/RCUTs should be addressed, so the content should not be exclusively about MUTIs.

I think the plan was to have a separate page for RCUTs and also one for Jughandles. While it could be logical to put MUTI and RCUT on one page, Jughandles are rather different, so might as well split all 3.


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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:10 pm

Okay, I will provisionally cede to the technical names.

I don't want to create an "alternative intersections" page because I don't think it's necessary — MUTIs and RCUTs and Jughandles fit into the AGC page as exceptions to the AGC rules. We could also link to that in a section in the upcoming Intersections subpage of the Junction Style Guide. "Alternative interchanges" are/will be taken care of on the Interchanges subpage of the Junction Style Guide.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:32 pm

Image

This one is rather small, because these are both locally-maintained roads. MDOT's signs (for state highways) are larger.

The reference to the MUTCD is only to say that the second "to" is consistent with the MUTCD's apparent ramp naming standards, for signs like the one here — the exit does not serve US-90 directly, but it does via Deckbar, so the BGS includes "TO". It's not really important.

I want to be clear that the naming standard in that article only necessarily applies to Michigan and should also be used at MUTIs in other places which are signed similarly. The naming standard is not rigid nationally, it should be adapted to the locale. MUTI segments in New Orleans are signed "U turn" because all U turns are signed that way and there's no explanatory BGS/LGS at the segment.

"U turn" is used in the New Orleans area because U turns are signed "U TURN" here. It isn't used in Michigan because U turn segments aren't signed as such here, and from what I can tell "turnaround" is the preferred nomenclature, if any.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:50 pm

qwaletee wrote:But having it named seems inconsistent with general ramp rules. The naming seems there to maintain the illusion of left turn at the previous intersection, but I don't know how much good it does. Especially since it might sometimes result in an announcement about the cross street (your real target) as you approach that cross street. That might seem like you are being asked to make an illegal turn.

I'm not sure what you mean by "inconsistent with general ramp rules". The names mostly follow Waze standards for ramp naming — they match local signage. The only difference is the second "to", which is consistent with the standards apparently set forth in the MUTCD — like on any exit sign that says "TO", the part after that is not the immediate destination of that ramp but follows soon thereafter.

Announcing the "real target" cross street is kind of the point. Consider Metro Pkwy at Mound. Say you're traveling northbound on Mound and need to go westbound on Metro Pkwy. Unnamed, your next turn instruction would be "[Left Turn] Mound Rd", which doesn't tell you much at all, you're already on Mound. Named as here, though, you'd get "[Left Turn] to Mound Rd S / to Metro Pkwy W". The first part, for Mound Rd S, is the immediate result of taking that "ramp" segment; the next part tells you where you might be headed next. But it's not sufficient to simply put "to Metro Pkwy W", because (1) that would imply that your immediate destination is Metro Pkwy W, and (2) although MDOT and Macomb County recommend that you turn right then turn around, Waze will choose whichever is faster.

Also, the signs say it like that, in that order. MDOT signs Michigan lefts on state and US highways as such, and Macomb County certainly follows suit — I'd think it's fair to assume others do as well. Matching signs is how ramps are named.

Any potential confusion that might be incurred by the presence of the destination road's name is mitigated by (1) the first road's name, (2) the use of directionals, and (3) "to".

What would be confusing is if one part of one such intersection was missing that instruction. What would also be confusing is if you needed to make a left onto a street served directly by that segment. Using one or the other would disadvantage users in one situation or the other.

Simplicity in the map is an admirable goal, but not at the expense of correct and helpful directions.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:31 pm

Heh, well you can trust it'd be a lot more confusing if you were navigating and single segments were used. "Turn left on Jackson Rd E / to Wagner Rd S" to go to Jackson Plz is misleading, and leaving it unnamed makes it inconsistent with the rest of the state.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:08 pm

The guide is a great idea.

One thing I wasn't thinking about when I helped create that one in Indianapolis is that the segments can share one node, just not both. Of course it makes more sense to share the entrance node, since that makes applying turn restrictions easier. That should be the recommended practice in such situations (such as the Michigan example posted just above).
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:47 pm

I personally like Wikipedia's choice of titles for the two articles and think we should follow suit. A note on this and the AGC page saying that Michigan lefts are not just used in Michigan is plenty enough to assuage potential confusion.

We could use "J-turn" instead of "Superstreet" because (1) we're more concerned with the connectors than the street itself and (2) we don't need an article on the (totally badass) driving maneuver with the same name.

I agree with qwaletee, the Wiki should be written in such a way that newbie editors can understand it and aren't scared off by it. "Michigan left" was changed to "MUTI" in the first place by a Michigan-based editor (hey, davielde) in order to make it nationally applicable, but perhaps those who live in Michigan don't realize that "Michigan left" is a common name nationwide too.
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