[New Page Proposal] Places

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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:05 pm

I totally understand that and I feel it's a good rationale for removing the "area or point based on size" guidance. Bassil's Ace Hardware deserves an area place just as much as Home Depot does.

But there's a point where area places simply don't make sense – businesses inside malls, strip malls, other buildings... I'm struggling to think of a reason why an area place should ever be smaller than a particular building, except possibly anchor stores at malls (which are often more like attached but distinct buildings anyway).

Similarly, like the IOOF Hall, if there is more than one tenant in a building, even if only one of the tenants in the building is commercial, the area place should be used for the building, not for the business inside it. The cigar store where I work is the only commercial tenant in The Orphanage, which is itself on the NRHP. The rest of the building is apartments. But still, naming the area place for the building after the cigar shop would be misleading and not really correct.

But it's not really fair for us to complain – we've got a great location, but all the other cigar shops I can think of are in strip malls or shopping centers anyway. It should generally work out that most stores of a certain type are either standalone or not.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:15 pm

It was only hasty because of the way Places was implemented—we had it in beta for a couple weeks and then suddenly it was put into production. The public launch was quick and unannounced, so we needed to create basic guidance as quickly as possible. So yes, it was put together in haste, but that's only cause we had very little time to do it.

(Unlike something like WME chat, which is relatively self-explanatory, what should and shouldn't be a Place is ultimately arbitrary and entirely subject to wiki guidance. So while one was okay without a page for a couple months, the other wasn't.)

Now, where we faltered was when we failed to reconsider the guidance in a slower, more open, and better calculated way. There's nothing to stop us doing so now, except the possibility of an extremely long thread ultimately ending in stalemate. Maybe we could eventually put a couple proposals together with a vote, though what editors prefer may not be what's best for Waze. Maybe staff would like to weigh in—but they probably wouldn't. Regardless, it's time to try.


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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:03 pm

No time frame, but relatively soonish.

More generally: the entire point of this thread is to discuss updates to Places guidance, so "what the wiki says" is not gospel, just status quo. There can be some deference thereto, but we should not be afraid to reevaluate our policies (especially in light of 3.9).
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:41 am

PhantomSoul wrote:If we start making edits based on principles discussed in exploratory conversations, it becomes really difficult for other editors who might not have been part of those exploratory conversations to understand why those edits were done, and/or explain to editors who might not understand all the advanced nuances of our reasoning why a particular edit would have to be done that way.

That's totally understandable. I'm pretty lucky in New Orleans to have a relatively small area and not many new editors to do large-scale testing of new and upcoming guidance and proposed guidance – if it sticks, great, and if it doesn't, it's easy to revert. That doesn't work everywhere, though.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:13 am

The way "private residences" act in the beta client is not final. I can't say much more (confidentiality) but I will say that we shouldn't have to worry about residences cluttering up the map.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:28 pm

I don't think the extent of the parking lot exclusion is appropriate any longer. I haven't seen the client show parking symbols when nearing a route's end in some time. Is that just because there aren't any parking lot Places near me? I don't think so, as I added one at school a few months ago.

Of course, parking lot area places are still not necessary. But there's nothing to stop people from adding, and no reason not to add, named parking garages / lots as point places.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:49 pm

PesachZ wrote:They should be allowed and encouraged for any lot/garage which is open to the public and not restricted to people visiting a specific venue. Basically any lot you can park in (paid or free) and then go do whatever you want legally.

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We shouldn't be that restrictive either. We should be able to map a university's parking garage(s) or lot(s) by name so that someone told they should "park in the Diboll Complex" or "park in South Stadium Lot" can find where to go, for example.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:08 pm

I was just speaking to parking lots' addition as places in general, not necessarily as Area Places – in fact, usually Point Places would be more appropriate given the state of things. (Once it's possible to display nested Places within the client, it'd be nice to add mall buildings inside mall parking lots, university buildings on a university campus, and so forth.)

Something is indeed happening with parking but I don't know if it relies on parking lot Places (or parking lot roads for that matter) in particular.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:58 pm

I don't know how that emergency-services-as-points thing ever got entered like that. These should be on the map.

I think the best way to do ERs is to have them in the hospital category with "ER" or "Emergency Room" appended to the beginning or end. This is identical to my suggestion a few months ago. And now, I have the added benefit of having used the system in a new Lexus which does the same thing – it'll have the hospital itself and the hospital's ER as two separate listings, for instance, "EAST JEFFERSON GENERAL HOSPITAL" and "EAST JEFFERSON GENERAL HOSPITAL - ER".

We could put "ER" or "Emergency Room" at the beginning, instead – as a point for an ER located within an existing area-Place hospital – for search purposes. Same for "Police" or "Fire" at the beginning of a police station or fire department. That said, search is being worked on and the beginning might not be so important.

So, either "ER - East Jefferson General Hospital" or "Emergency Room - East Jefferson General Hospital". More important than which one we pick is that we pick one and keep it consistent. "ER" saves space and is a very well known term in America (thanks NBC), so that's got my vote.
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Re: [New Page Proposal] Places

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:37 pm

Agreed with above.

doctorkb wrote:I agree that ER should be labelled. We need to be careful that the area places don't get so small as to not show on the map, too.

Could we suggest an "Area" place for the whole hospital / fire dept / police station grounds, then use point places to give the ER a specific destination end point?

That's exactly what I meant to say, although my point may have been lost in the text.

The separate "ER" point place should only be necessary for hospitals, of course, but that's how I'd want to do it. Area for the hospital, Point for the ER. Areas for police and fire stations.

PesachZ wrote:I vote for the ER to be at the beginning since many hospitals have long names which may be truncated in the results display, making it hard to tell which result is the ER, and which is the main entrance.

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I agree with this.

More generally, there should be a standard for naming Places that are part of another Place – as in, buildings on a university campus. I would say the general rule should similarly be "Specific Place - Encompassing Place", for example "Weinmann Hall - Tulane University", or "Apple Store - Lakeside Shopping Center". For places which are commonly abbreviated, that could be used, like "University Center - UNO" instead of "University Center - University of New Orleans".

The only place I can think of where I'd rather it be reversed is airports – "MSY - Departures" and "DTW - North Terminal - Arrivals" and so forth. Because we know the code will be only 3 letters long, and we want to be able to search "MSY" and get all the options.
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