[Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:14 pm

OK, I've added the following blurb to the text under "Extent". I agree that it doesn't hurt to echo the concern in this article, even though it is a subset of the Places article.

As with all Area Places, a Parking-Lot Area Place's geometry nodes should not be allowed to "snap" to adjacent road segments or junctions while being adjusted. Doing so can make the Area Place, as well as the adjacent segments or junctions, more difficult to modify.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:49 pm

sketch wrote:It's questionable whether they even suppress MPs.

The MP scripts now appear to be run so seldom and unpredictably that I think it's impossible to reverse-engineer this question on anything shorter than a geological timeframe.

The question comes up as to how much we should worry about what does and doesn't trigger MPs at all.

In recent months I've encountered some compliant public parking lots located underneath freeway viaducts. These are a pain to map in separate chunks to avoid overlapping the freeway, and not accurate to do so either. Is it time to remove the prohibition against mapping Parking-Lot Area Places over roads bearing through traffic?
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:12 pm

That's interesting. I noticed it briefly during a recent trip but hadn't yet pursued understanding the functionality.

This opens another can of worms. We had been cautiously suggesting Parking-Lot Point Places as OK for named but dedicated parking. For example, different sections of a giant parking lot for a theme park or college or sports venue.

If each and every nearby parking-lot place now displays with a "P" marker, then driving around the hypothetical theme-park lot with different sections marked, one would see an abundance of "P" markers. Meanwhile, visitors to neighboring destinations may see those "P" markers too, even though they are dedicated to patrons only. Those visitors would not be able to determine from Waze that the "P" markers do not mark parking they can legally use; at least not without some guesswork.

So, does this mean that even Parking-Lot Point Places must now be held to the full "general purpose for the general public" standard? If so, what do we do for all the editors who enjoy marking different sections of private parking lots?

And does it mean we should stop using the Parking-Lot Area Place altogether and only use Point Places? Probably not, but should the constraints on the Parking-Lot Area Place be more stringent now that the Point Place has display functionality?
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[Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:46 am

Not sure I follow...is the idea that all named parking, whether dedicated or not, whether for the general public or only for limited groups like customers or permit holders, should now get Area Places that call out the limitations associated with the parking in their displayed name?

E.g. even restricted private parking could now get an Area Place as long as it's qualified in the name? For example "Mercy Hospital patient parking only" "Matrix casino parking only" "Millennium hotel guest parking only"?

Stylistic questions aside, there's a practical problem which is that (it appears) all "P" markers look exactly alike whether it's general-public / general-purpose parking or dedicated/private parking -- and in fact the "P" markers can display in such a way that they cover the Area Place label, as is evident in nzahn1's example image. It seems like it might be terrifically hard for a driver who has limited attention to examine the screen closely to determine which "P" is suitable and which "P" is not.

The way this is now implemented, with a simple large generic "P" that can even cover the name, makes me think average drivers will be better served by our limiting use of the Parking Lot Place to general-purpose general-public parking. But maybe named dedicated/private parking could get another category of Point or Area Place?

Sorry if I misunderstood the suggestion...I'm not getting the concept here.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:16 pm

We need to determine where we want the new "P" marker to pop up. If Waze has programmed it to pop up on any nearby Parking Lot category, then ipso facto we must only apply that category to things we want to get a "P" marker.

Personally, as a driver, I would find it confusing to see "P" showing me both parking I could use as well as parking I couldn't use because I'm not attending a given event or theme park or whatever. If that happened often I would soon begin to disregard "P" and it would become a nuisance rather than a feature.

So unless the functionality changes I'd lean against using the Parking Lot category for private/dedicated parking like stadium or permit parking. Not because I don't think they deserve a Place! But simply to prevent the "P" marker from showing up on the app.

If Waze made a WME checkbox for the Parking Lot category to identify whether it should be shown with the new "P" marker, that would be a great solution.

Alternately, we could use another category. Again I'm not saying things like Stadium Lot E shouldn't be mapped at all! I can definitely see the utility. I'm just saying it seems problematic for them to get a "P" marker. So, using another category -- perhaps one associated with the venue, e.g. "Stadium / Arena" would work.

I don't consider that an ideal solution, but Waze may be forcing our hand here.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:50 am

Lots of good work here DwarfLord.

I only wanted to comment on your proposed title which I assume is currently:

How and When to Mark Parking: The Parking-Lot Place Area

Since pages are found from a search, the more words you use the less likely the Wiki search will lead to it overall. The general Wiki guidelines would say to use a title as succinct as possible, but still differentiate from other pages. So the first question is if this is a subpage of the Place page, or Parking Lot Page.

I propose a sub of the Place page and also have a link from the Parking Lot section/page to here.

Possibly one of these depending on whether the Places page needs to be subsectioned:
* Places/Parking Lot Area
* Places/Area/Parking Lot
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:05 pm

DwarfLord wrote:Since the WME continues to offer "Parking Lot", as a Place Area, for direct access via the write menu, it seems logical to locate the discussion at a higher level in the wiki structure with links as appropriate. I'm delighted to comply with any way of accomplishing that you suggest, I'm new to wiki structuring.

The actual structure is more about association so when you are on a page you can see the parent pages like [[Places/Areas/Parking Lot]]. That tells you this parking lot information is bound under Areas under Places. Then we also have links from other related pages, and we create redirects from other descriptions and terms.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:54 pm

Seems OK at this point.

The main Places page will likely include all the descriptions of the basic entries with little question or controversy. The areas or points that have more discussion would likely link to a subpage to better explain them. In that case it may be fine to have all sub pages be direct under Places, rather than Places/Area and Places/Point.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm

I am good. Minimally be sure to get Alan's feedback since he started the Places page. I have not followed this thread 100%, but as long as you have addressed the comments so far we are probably OK. Keep the construction template on while we sort through the new feature just in case.

A few things I would address before moving it over so it is part of the original page (see process to move page below):

1. Our style guide follows Wikipedia and we should use sentence caps on page names and sections unless it is a proper noun.

2. In the first section you have "Area." This is probably too vague for the average user.

I created a page you can copy and paste your content. Since this is the initial page creation, there is not a lot of need to keep the history of your modifications. This copy/paste method will create the page as a single entry in the history and then start tracking new changes from there.
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Re: [Updated Page Proposal] The Parking-Lot Place Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:46 pm

If most of our Places are one or the other, can we just focus on calling them "Parking Lot Places?" Then in the details we decide if they are points or areas.
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