Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

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Re: FAA

Postby HavanaDay » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:44 pm

dbraughlr wrote:As the FAA decode sheet linked above shows, FDK identifies the following:
  • FREDERICK MUNI ARPT
  • FREDERICK MUNI ILS RWY 23 [radio beacon]
  • FREDERICK VOR [radio beacon]
  • FREDERICK RCO [remote communications outlet radio]

The ICAO code KFDK identifies solely and unambiguously Frederick Municipal Airport.


This is not a flying app. At least until we get flying cars. In a car you will not be driving the ILS, or driving to the VOR, and you certainly won't be talking to the RCO.

IATA Codes work. It is what people know. It is generally what is on their baggage claim. I don't think too many people know that Heathrow is EGLL, but they probably know it as LHR.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:32 pm

In another thread we discussed this same issue and when I asked Waze staff about why they are routing us to the walking trail, they said they want to be able to get people to the front door if there is no road to get there.

Looking at Alan's example (which is correct based on another failure I found in San Jose just like it), it seems there is a problem with the routing currently that would favor walking 1 mile on a trail rather than parking 10 feet from the front entrance because the end of the walking trail is 5 feet from the entrance.

As for runways, I have always questioned the true purpose from Waze perspective, but assuming they want to market to pilots one day or we just want to see the airport as a landmark, we just need to be sure Waze will not include a runway as a routable segment once it appears in the client. Otherwise we will get routed to the back of the airport fence just because the runways are closer to the airport marker than the roadways in front of the terminal.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:04 pm

DwarfLord wrote:I really don't see anything wrong in a "soft standard" here that articulates guidance in terms of "preferred" and "acceptable alternative" approaches. A soft standard has the advantage of not suddenly throwing the work of diligent wiki-abiding editors into noncompliance, while still establishing the consensus convention.

I think in this case we can easily describe the hierarchy for editors to follow and everyone can easily identify the proper entry. I updated the Wiki (with external links) based on the above conversation:
Wiki Update wrote:Name each runway using the airport identifier, the word ''Runway'', and the runway designations with the lower number first (e.g., "SMF Runway 16R-34L".) The primary airport identifier that should be used is the IATA 3-letter code, for example "SFO", "LAX", "JFK", etc. If the airport in question is not included in that list, use the ICAO 4-letter code instead. If the airport is not included in that list use the FAA identifier.
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Re: IATA, ICAO, FAA

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:08 pm

DwarfLord wrote:This is a wiki for the US only.

Technically this is a USA page yes. However we have a lot of countries that follow the US standard exactly. Therefore when there are options that are more universal, we do our best to use the more flexible solution.

Otherwise I agree the FAA code appears to be the easier and complete solution for the US alone.
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Re: dual-use taxiways

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:41 am

dbraughlr wrote:
sketch wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by a "dual use taxiway"; if it really is a taxiway also used as a public road, or as a small airport's parking lot, then that's fine.

Dual-use roadways in Cameron Park, California.

Good example. I added a link to the area and an image to the Road Types/USA page.

sketch wrote:Runways are displayed in 3.8.0 in the default day scheme only.

Confirmed. Although I noticed that many of the airports around me in the bay area have huge sections of the runways not displaying as if the names of the Places layer is obscuring it by about the size of a map tile. SFO is highly broken up as an example. Makes it pretty much useless as a navigation aide for a driver. :lol:
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby orbitc » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:46 pm

sketch wrote:I'm going to resurrect this again. We brought up arguments but never made a change. I do not believe it is proper to include the airport code within the runway name. Also, the numbers in a runway number are, everywhere I've seen them, separated by a slash, not a hyphen.

I propose a change from, e.g., "MSY Runway 10-28", first introduced here and never changed, to, e.g., "Runway 10/28".


I agree with Marc on this. I'm OK with mapping mapping runways, but no need name them with the airport name. That will only confuse someone searching an airport. We can name them "Runway 1L/19R" etc and not the Airport name
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:26 pm

sketch wrote:I'm going to resurrect this again. We brought up arguments but never made a change. I do not believe it is proper to include the airport code within the runway name. Also, the numbers in a runway number are, everywhere I've seen them, separated by a slash, not a hyphen.

I propose a change from, e.g., "MSY Runway 10-28", first introduced here and never changed, to, e.g., "Runway 10/28".

I agree,
The only benefit to including the airport name in the runway would be for search. Considering anyone looking at the nap will see the airport area name. And since we should never be searching for a runway as a destination - wazing whole flying is BAD - I see no reason to include the airport name in the runway name.

And I do agree we should map runways, they are a universal landmark.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:47 pm

voludu2 wrote:Consensus seems to be:
* Naming of runways remains optional
* If runways are named, then the guideline must be: choose a name that will not confuse wazers
** this means NO airport name (search on airport name might retrieve runway, which is a very bad destination for driving.)

It sounded like the consensus was IF you decide to name the runway, then you should follow the standard name of "##/##( [LCR])" (two digits, slash, two digits, then a space and single letter if appropriate.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:03 am

dbraughlr wrote:
voludu2 wrote:Examples which could occur at the same airport include "03L/21R", "03C/21C", "03R/21L"


We use a hyphen, not a slant.
dbraughlr wrote:
tonestertm wrote:...(confirmed with an Air Traffic Controller that slashes are standard naming).


He was mistaken. I have never seen a slash.
The only acceptable form is with a hyphen.

Runway sign

This appears to be correct. This FAA diagram of JFK uses a hypen for all 4 runways. These paintings visible in sat view also use the hyphen.
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Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby pumrum » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:15 pm

The US Road Types are being overhauled and driveable roads are being discussed in detail here.

I propose that those who wish to engage in a lively discussion on guidance relating to Runways, Taxiways, and other features around airports such as airport parking lots, rental car facilities, taxi staging areas, etc. Some of these topics are covered in other areas such as Parking Lots and Private Roads, but I think Waze would benefit from standardization around airports. The more consistent Waze is around major travel hubs, the better the user experience will be. The product of these discussions could be used to enhance or complement existing wiki pages.

A couple examples to start:

Runways - Naming
I would recommend using the FAA identifier rather than the ICAO identifier for runway markings. I think if you try to standardize on ICAO (KXXX) you will just end up confusing the masses -- most people recognize the FAA identifier. Further, some airfields don't have an ICAO identifier but all airfields have an FAA identifier.
Name each runway using the FAA airport identifier, the word runway, and the runway designations with the lower number first (e.g., "KSMF Runway 16R-34L".)

Change to: (e.g., "SMF Runway 16R-34L".)


Runways - Elevation
I would recommend setting the standard that all runways should be set to elevation = ground (0). In the rare instances where a road crosses under a runway's path, the road should deviate elevation to the negative. In the extremely rare case where a runway and a road intersect, no junction should be formed and the road should deviate elevation to the positive so it appears over the runway. This would make it easy to standardize on 0 for runway elevation, since the vast majority of runways never cross paths with a road.


Taxiways
I would recommend providing guidance that airport taxiways should not be mapped. In many larger airports the taxiways can be quite complex, would appear the same size/color as runways, and would reduce the distinctive appearance of the runways being identified as runways. Google Maps solves this by using a thinner, lighter line for taxiways. Waze should just omit them.


Restricted Access Roads
I would recommend that segments which require SIDA or other TSA, DHS, or airport authority credentials to access should not be mapped in Waze. Some may disagree - but until Waze offers some way to alert the user that their destination may be in a restricted area like google, navigon, garmin, and some others do - I don't think it is safe or prudent to even have the ability to possibly maybe route someone onto airport property.
I would concede that you could map the segments as long as they were never connected to the main driveable network (similar to railroads and walking paths), but we would need a way for WME Validator to flag that. Ideas?


Standardized Airport Feature Naming (Roads, Lots, Places, etc)
bgodette wrote:That discussion will likely lead to standardized naming of important navigational points that aren't normal Places, eg "SFO - Rental Return" "SFO - Cell Waiting" "DIA - Arrivals East" etc.

bgodette brought up a good point here - there could be value in standardizing the naming of some common features at major airports such as cell phone waiting lots, arrivals/departures access, rental car location, etc.
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