Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby orbitc » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:46 pm

sketch wrote:I'm going to resurrect this again. We brought up arguments but never made a change. I do not believe it is proper to include the airport code within the runway name. Also, the numbers in a runway number are, everywhere I've seen them, separated by a slash, not a hyphen.

I propose a change from, e.g., "MSY Runway 10-28", first introduced here and never changed, to, e.g., "Runway 10/28".


I agree with Marc on this. I'm OK with mapping mapping runways, but no need name them with the airport name. That will only confuse someone searching an airport. We can name them "Runway 1L/19R" etc and not the Airport name
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:26 pm

sketch wrote:I'm going to resurrect this again. We brought up arguments but never made a change. I do not believe it is proper to include the airport code within the runway name. Also, the numbers in a runway number are, everywhere I've seen them, separated by a slash, not a hyphen.

I propose a change from, e.g., "MSY Runway 10-28", first introduced here and never changed, to, e.g., "Runway 10/28".

I agree,
The only benefit to including the airport name in the runway would be for search. Considering anyone looking at the nap will see the airport area name. And since we should never be searching for a runway as a destination - wazing whole flying is BAD - I see no reason to include the airport name in the runway name.

And I do agree we should map runways, they are a universal landmark.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:47 pm

voludu2 wrote:Consensus seems to be:
* Naming of runways remains optional
* If runways are named, then the guideline must be: choose a name that will not confuse wazers
** this means NO airport name (search on airport name might retrieve runway, which is a very bad destination for driving.)

It sounded like the consensus was IF you decide to name the runway, then you should follow the standard name of "##/##( [LCR])" (two digits, slash, two digits, then a space and single letter if appropriate.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:03 am

dbraughlr wrote:
voludu2 wrote:Examples which could occur at the same airport include "03L/21R", "03C/21C", "03R/21L"


We use a hyphen, not a slant.
dbraughlr wrote:
tonestertm wrote:...(confirmed with an Air Traffic Controller that slashes are standard naming).


He was mistaken. I have never seen a slash.
The only acceptable form is with a hyphen.

Runway sign

This appears to be correct. This FAA diagram of JFK uses a hypen for all 4 runways. These paintings visible in sat view also use the hyphen.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:09 pm

dbraughlr wrote:Soon it could be often.
But we're driving in circles. People can and do pave while the plane is taxiing, taking off, and landing.
Having the runways mapped, named, locked, and not connected prevents or deters a lot of problems that otherwise would keep coming back.

There is a single international convention for runway numbering and it's not that hard to follow.

Permalinks are useful for seeing the aerial imagery from my computer so I don't have to fly there to verify your claim that "runways are indeed painted with hyphens (visible from the air)".

I posted a permalink to JFK airport in NYC on March 16th, you could also just check the sat view at Amy major airport.

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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:06 pm

dmcrandall wrote:
krikketdoug wrote:What is the current rule-of-thumb for the elevation of runways? I was under the impression that it should always be set at a 5.

As for taxiways, I can think of one case where we might want to include them. If a taxiway crosses over a driveable road.


I've always set Runways to Ground.

Also, since they don't show up in the general road view on the app, there is no incentive to map the taxiways. And, it's a violation of Wiki standard.

I believe the suggestion was to modify the wiki, and it may very well show on the app in the future.
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Last edited by PesachZ on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby PesachZ » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:05 pm

qwaletee wrote:I hope it doesn't skew. That might result in a NTSB investigation.

Fixed

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Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby pumrum » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:15 pm

The US Road Types are being overhauled and driveable roads are being discussed in detail here.

I propose that those who wish to engage in a lively discussion on guidance relating to Runways, Taxiways, and other features around airports such as airport parking lots, rental car facilities, taxi staging areas, etc. Some of these topics are covered in other areas such as Parking Lots and Private Roads, but I think Waze would benefit from standardization around airports. The more consistent Waze is around major travel hubs, the better the user experience will be. The product of these discussions could be used to enhance or complement existing wiki pages.

A couple examples to start:

Runways - Naming
I would recommend using the FAA identifier rather than the ICAO identifier for runway markings. I think if you try to standardize on ICAO (KXXX) you will just end up confusing the masses -- most people recognize the FAA identifier. Further, some airfields don't have an ICAO identifier but all airfields have an FAA identifier.
Name each runway using the FAA airport identifier, the word runway, and the runway designations with the lower number first (e.g., "KSMF Runway 16R-34L".)

Change to: (e.g., "SMF Runway 16R-34L".)


Runways - Elevation
I would recommend setting the standard that all runways should be set to elevation = ground (0). In the rare instances where a road crosses under a runway's path, the road should deviate elevation to the negative. In the extremely rare case where a runway and a road intersect, no junction should be formed and the road should deviate elevation to the positive so it appears over the runway. This would make it easy to standardize on 0 for runway elevation, since the vast majority of runways never cross paths with a road.


Taxiways
I would recommend providing guidance that airport taxiways should not be mapped. In many larger airports the taxiways can be quite complex, would appear the same size/color as runways, and would reduce the distinctive appearance of the runways being identified as runways. Google Maps solves this by using a thinner, lighter line for taxiways. Waze should just omit them.


Restricted Access Roads
I would recommend that segments which require SIDA or other TSA, DHS, or airport authority credentials to access should not be mapped in Waze. Some may disagree - but until Waze offers some way to alert the user that their destination may be in a restricted area like google, navigon, garmin, and some others do - I don't think it is safe or prudent to even have the ability to possibly maybe route someone onto airport property.
I would concede that you could map the segments as long as they were never connected to the main driveable network (similar to railroads and walking paths), but we would need a way for WME Validator to flag that. Ideas?


Standardized Airport Feature Naming (Roads, Lots, Places, etc)
bgodette wrote:That discussion will likely lead to standardized naming of important navigational points that aren't normal Places, eg "SFO - Rental Return" "SFO - Cell Waiting" "DIA - Arrivals East" etc.

bgodette brought up a good point here - there could be value in standardizing the naming of some common features at major airports such as cell phone waiting lots, arrivals/departures access, rental car location, etc.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – Airports and Surrounding Area

Postby pumrum » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:41 pm

sketch wrote:I agree on runways except that there's no reason to include any airport identifier, so "Runway 4R/22L".

I'm ambivalent on this one. I went with what's on the Revised Road Types (USA) to start, and tweaked it to be FAA instead of ICAO. I do think having the airport code in there could clutter up the map. I can also see very very slight value in having it there if it displays in the app. I do lean towards agreeing with you though - leave the identifier off and just call it "Runway 16-34" or "Runway 16/34" whatever the standard is

sketch wrote:I agree on leaving restricted-access roads off the map, and this was a significant part of that former discussion. The community agrees on this, I believe.

Excellent. Once we have a chance to codify it in the wiki, I will start reaching out to AMs and suggesting they clean up some of the on-airport roads

sketch wrote:I think some of this is in the Wiki already, I'm just not sure where. Agreed some of it should be in the Road types article.

Agreed. When the dust settles from the public roadway changes, we can pick this one up.


I think something that AMs should be doing ASAP is checking their airport Places to make sure the stop point is in the right place now that they're supported. I've run into a couple issues lately where Waze routed me around the back side of a very large airport - of course when I'm late for a flight :oops:
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Re: airport identifiers

Postby pumrum » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:25 pm

dbraughlr wrote:How about using the IATA for airports which have have one and FAA identifier for the rest?

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Where an airport code is required use IATA and fall back on FAA if IATA doesn't exist. I do agree with sketch though that we should probably leave the identifier off of the runway segments
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