Area Place: footprint or fence line?

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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby sketch » Thu May 01, 2014 6:48 pm

I think the questions for some of those are different than others. (For instance, where would we map parks other than at the fence line? A park is an area of land, not a building.)

I believe what would make Waze look a lot better while answering a lot of these questions — and I've said this before — is the ability to have a lighter-shaded "grounds"-type Place and a darker-shaded "building" place. Name the grounds "Lakeside Shopping Center" and leave the building blank; name the grounds "Tulane University" and the buildings "Reily Student Center" and "Diboll Complex" and "Weinmann Hall"; name the grounds "DTW – Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport" and the buildings "North Terminal" and "McNamara Terminal"; and so forth.

Not that this can't be accomplished navigationally with stop points and point places, but it'd make identification of an airport vs. a mall vs. a college campus a lot easier.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby sketch » Thu May 01, 2014 3:50 pm

Well, okay, let me tailor that a bit better. Accuracy should not be sacrificed for "efficiency".

I don't mean that we shouldn't use fewer nodes when mapping a given road or landmark or whatever, as long as it's accurate. But the decision whether to map at the fence line or the building edge shouldn't be decided based on the number of nodes. We should do whatever looks better and works better and makes more sense. We should still use only as many nodes as necessary to follow whichever line is best.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby sketch » Thu May 01, 2014 5:23 am

In my experience buildings would use fewer nodes than fence lines, at least for shopping malls.

I don't think "fewer nodes" is a legitimate reason to choose one editing method over another, at least not anymore. As far as I'm concerned that's a carryover from a time long past, when editing was difficult and the servers weren't really up to their tasks. Those days are gone.

Waze has been moving in the general direction of detail and accuracy. Staff sentiments seem to confirm this. A Place for every place, and so forth.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby ScottZane » Mon May 12, 2014 7:57 am

As far as what you're referring to with the nested Area Places, that does sound like a silly idea. I can see Tallahassee Memorial as an Area with all of the parts of the complex you referred to being Points within that Area being a much better option.

Ultimately, I'm not sure there is a really rigid standard that can truly be followed anyway. Certain guidelines are definitely a good way to keep things standardized for a good reason, but giving some room for flexibility because of special situations should definitely be worthy of much consideration too.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby ScottZane » Sun May 11, 2014 4:59 pm

With the most common complaint about Area Places being map clutter, what would be really nice to see is the ability to set filters in the client (or WME too), both generic (all places) and by category. I don't think it would be difficult for the Waze staff to implement such a feature. This would also allow people who want to see such things to see them, and those who don't want to see some or all of them to do so as they desire.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby ScottZane » Sun May 11, 2014 4:20 pm

Here's my take: Overall, I agree with what nzahn1 said. However, there is a potential caveat to using the fence-line approach to many places. Having dealt with numerous URs that resulted from Waze routing drivers to roadway nearest (especially freeways) to the pin or area, I can see there being potential routing problems if editors use the fence-line approach. If an area place is surrounded on all 4 sides by roads, there is likelihood that Waze will route drivers to any one of the 4 roads (whichever one is the shortest drive for them), even if only one of those sides provides access.

I can still see reasons for going to the fence line though. In fact, I dealt with a UR yesterday in which Waze wanted a driver to take a circular route around a specific set of segments on a road that had no problems with it at all. Since I wasn't able to find any problems with any of the segments in the area and LiveMap routed me properly on some test routes, I concluded that Waze might have received erroneous speed data from a Wazer who might have been sitting in the nearby In-N-Out Burger drive-thru with their Waze client still running. As nzahn1 suggested earlier, this could be a good case for having an Area Place that is drawn around the entire property.

In the interest of preventing potential routing issues related to "nearest roadway", I think the use of PLRs should be strongly encouraged so as to force Waze to route drivers to the point/area using the proper roads/driveways required to enter the location.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby nzahn1 » Thu May 01, 2014 5:20 pm

Let me add some detail to my fence line stance:
Schools at fence lines include the associated parking lots, fields, playgrounds, etc...;
Gas stations at fence lines suppress traffic jams, MPs, etc...;
Shopping centers at fence lines provide a visual landmark at high zoom levels for navigation;
Parks at fence lines add to visual map enjoyment;
Police, Fire, EMT stations at fence lines expand visibility to higher zoom levels for navigation;
Zoos, private installations, major tourist locations mapped at fence line to show areas where roads may be restricted from entry;

I'm having trouble seeing the benefit to mapping any of these would be better off mapped at building outlines.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby nzahn1 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:50 pm

Add one vote fence line...
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu May 01, 2014 3:13 pm

sketch wrote:I don't think "fewer nodes" is a legitimate reason to choose one editing method over another, at least not anymore. As far as I'm concerned that's a carryover from a time long past, when editing was difficult and the servers weren't really up to their tasks. Those days are gone.

Waze has been moving in the general direction of detail and accuracy. Staff sentiments seem to confirm this. A Place for every place, and so forth.

I disagree that fewer nodes should not be a constant effort. We should not assume that more work is better for the servers than less work when not truly necessary. Just like energy or water conservation, it is a constant effort that should never be ignored. I'm not saying every area should only be a 4 point rectangle, but we don't need to map a node every 6 inches either.

As for increased items being mapped, I do agree with that part of your comment.
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Re: Area Place: footprint or fence line?

Postby jdeyoung » Thu May 01, 2014 1:22 am

The primary logic in my mind for simplified areas (fence line) has more to do reducing the number of nodes to store for the area. Considering not just building outlines but user-mapped lakes and parks trying mimic every nuance of the place uses lots of nodes - good for editors looking for points but otherwise not so helpful - and that balloons the storage requirements and potentially slows client drawing performance (that's just a guess). But servers get larger capacity and clients get more powerful so that reason could be short-lived. With Point places to be much more specific about locations within a large Area place, the value of having that large Area place becomes less important as well. How important is it to know that you're still within the confines of a large hospital complex, a park, college campus etc. when what you're looking for is a specific destination?
There are times when driving in unfamiliar locations when it is nice to know you're actually nearing/adjacent to park property, but that value seems just a bit less when I know the actually mileage to my destination within a large complex where cosmetics seem far less important.
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