No through traffic

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Re: No through traffic

Postby DwarfLord » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:01 am

I did a bit of wordsmithing and included the "no through traffic" case as well. This is what the wiki now says. Please feel welcome to revert or modify as desired!
Updated Road Types / USA wiki wrote:As with Parking-Lot Roads, a route over a Private Road will incur a transition penalty upon leaving it for another road type. This transition penalty keeps Waze from routing Wazers through a private area as a shortcut. Unlike Parking-Lot Roads, however, Private Roads do not suppress automated traffic jams in the Waze application.

As of August 2014 the Waze client does not display private roads differently from public roads, but this behavior may change in the future. To maintain display consistency in anticipation of that time, the Private Road type should never be used for unrestricted public roads. Do not use the Private Road type as a workaround to force Waze to avoid slow public roads, for example those with rough patches or construction. In special cases, however, the Private Road type may be used for a public street that is legally and enforceably signed for local traffic only.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:51 am

That looks good, but the first two sentences can probably be shortened a little bit, perhaps along the lines of:

As of August 2014 the Waze client displays Private Roads identically to public roads. Since this may change in future releases, never use the Private Road type for unrestricted public roads.

As to SV and Sat shifts, I did once check on this. SV pictures are taken with GPS coords, and I found they generally matched up with what Waze records for a drive. You can repeat the test as follows:

Find a road where the Sat imagery is off from road geometry, and appears to be due to a Sat image shift

Drive the road. At each intersection, turn in sharply, pause for a few seconds, make a K turn, return to the main road, and continue.

When the drive shows up in your Waze drives, note all your K-turns showing little squiggles on the drive record. matches

Use SV to trace the path, and see whether SV 1) matches your path pretty closely (the blue dot goes to the recorded coordinates of the picture), and 2) SV should show each intersection at the point where you dived in and K turned.

There's occasional error in the SV coordinates, but they do usually track very well, and seem less subject to warping than Sat pics.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:44 pm

qwaletee wrote:That looks good, but the first two sentences can probably be shortened a little bit, perhaps along the lines of:

As of August 2014 the Waze client displays Private Roads identically to public roads. Since this may change in future releases, never use the Private Road type for unrestricted public roads.

Done
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Re: No through traffic

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:51 pm

qwaletee wrote:As to SV and Sat shifts, I did once check on this. SV pictures are taken with GPS coords, and I found they generally matched up with what Waze records for a drive.
It's a great technique and I've used it myself on many occasions. However, where I live we have forests of trees that grow a bit tall. Well, quite tall. Like, taller than the entire Statue of Liberty from the base of the pedestal to the top of the torch.

The ones that were THAT tall are nearly all cut down now, but even the "little" ones are pretty impressive. They make a big impression on the GPS signals that's for sure. I've found that SV position data is not that reliable in some of these forests.

But it can still be useful to get an idea of how the road turns, and you can use that with occasional glimpses of asphalt to register the track.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby Gazoo4U » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:24 pm

vectorspace wrote:I agree -- I just was prompting txemt and Driving79 to expand details on the brief comments I had heard about this all-private-street issue so that the rest of us could learn from their experience.


Here is an example, of poor exit routing from an all private neighborhood. The neighborhood was set to all private due to UR's reporting that Waze was having them cut through the neighborhood from NB telegraph (south of Hickory Grove) to EB Square Lake Road. Followed by a note from the township manager. Now that its private, this no longer happens.

But even on this attached route, it is significantly quicker to go north and exit the neighborhood that way, but Waze does not send them that way. I would guess, based on cbenson's earlier post, that Waze wishes to take the south exit of the neighborhood from this segment because there is no transition penalty for the first segment to exit onto a street.

https://www.waze.com/livemap?lon=-83.27 ... =-83.27749
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Re: No through traffic

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Good catch! Glad to finally understand the problem with private road installations.

So, actually, we don't need to set the middle segments as non-private. Instead, if we split each entrance segment into a pair private road segments with a short segment near the entrance/exits and a longer segment for the rest of it, it won't be a problem, because you won't start a route while at the gatehouse (or at least, won't expect the route to send you right back through the gatehouse).

This is a better solution than using the "large installation" rules. This way, the "private road" appearance is kept on the live map and, in the future, in the app.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:41 pm

I'm afraid I still don't understand why Waze is doing this. From what we know, the private road penalty occurs at the transition to public road. In Gazzo4U's example, whether you go south and turn onto Hickory or go north and turn onto Square Lake, there is no penalty until you reach one of those two roads, and then there should be an equal penalty turning onto either them.... in which case, the penalty is a common factor, and won't affect the relative outcomes of the two routes, and it should choose the true shorter or faster route.

if we were to implement the proposed solution, the same thing should happen -- equal transition penalties no matter which way you go, since they will all have the same exit configuration.

I'm not saying the proposed solution doesn't work, I just don't understand both why the problem occurs to begin with (meaning, we're missing something in the algorithm or we've found a bug), and similarly why that is eliminated by the split connection.

I did have one thought. Perhaps, especially for shorter routes, the penalty is actually the majority of the trip cost. Say I have a "normal" routing cost of 1 minute for north and 4 minutes for south. But, if say the transition penalty is 100 minutes, that becomes 101 minutes versus 104 minutes. Perhaps waze considers that <3% difference negligible and chooses randomly.

But I don't think that's right either.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby CBenson » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:51 pm

qwaletee wrote:I'm afraid I still don't understand why Waze is doing this. From what we know, the private road penalty occurs at the transition to public road. In Gazzo4U's example, whether you go south and turn onto Hickory or go north and turn onto Square Lake, there is no penalty until you reach one of those two roads, and then there should be an equal penalty turning onto either them.... in which case, the penalty is a common factor, and won't affect the relative outcomes of the two routes, and it should choose the true shorter or faster route.


As far I can tell waze sees no transition from a private road to a public road in Gazzo4U's example when going south and turning onto Hickory. This seems to be because the route never passes over a junction onto a private road segment. Waze thus never realizes that the route is on a private road.

If I understand sketch correctly he is simply proposing to add another junction rear the actual exit so that the route would pass over a junction onto a short private road segment and thus the penalty would be applied when leaving that short segment.
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Re: No through traffic

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:57 pm

CBenson,

My puzzlement is that the same exact holds true both south and north, so there's equivalent no penalty or no penalty for both routes in his example.

Also, I thought you guys brought back from dev that the penalty is on the transition LEAVING the private road, not ENTERING the private road. Or is it only when leaving after having entered?
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No through traffic

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:02 pm

The penalty is upon leaving a private road, but there appears to be some bug that occurs where the penalty is not assessed from the segment the route begins on. So it should only be a problem when starting a route from a private road segment which connects directly to the public road system.

CBenson, maybe we should tell staff about it.
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