[New page] Formal mentoring

Moderator: Unholy

[New page] Formal mentoring

Postby qwaletee » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:10 pm

The current mentoring page https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Mentoring covers both formal and informal mentoring, which are not really comparable programs. Informal mentoring takes place without any guiding force, and happens often by accident or because of a social relationship that has formed among eidtors.

Formal mentoring is very structured.

they obviously have an overlap in tools and topics, but I think they should be separated, with a brief mention on each of the other type of mentoring.

To kick this off, I created a Formal mentoring page https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Formal_mentoring

Will have to move some the material around between the pages. I expect to create an Informal mentoring page. ultimately, the unqualified "Mentoring" page that exists now will either be a {{dab}} or we'll pick formal to be primary (since we're promoting its use!) and hatnotes to cross link.

Thoughts?
US Champ / Country Manager | State Manager NY, NJ, PA, CT, MA, RI, VT, ME, NH | Northeast ARC | Mentor | Responding to Map Issues
qwaletee
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
 
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:42 am
Location: NYC Metro - Active throughout NE^2 (Northeast & New England)
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 1090 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:47 am

Not participating in the formal mentoring program, I will not voice my feedback very loudly, but I will say it seems like we could go down this page to separate the two into different pages. The main [[Mentoring]] page could be the initial start of all mentoring with a breakdown of the two types with the summary table of differences. They you have two separate pages from there on [[Mentoring/Informal]] and [[Mentoring/Formal]]. The Formal page could include some of the other content that I think is on separate pages now.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5051
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 1277 times
Been thanked: 1496 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby vectorspace » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:28 am

qwaletee wrote:The current mentoring page https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Mentoring covers both formal and informal mentoring, which are not really comparable programs. Informal mentoring takes place without any guiding force, and happens often by accident or because of a social relationship that has formed among eidtors.

Formal mentoring is very structured.

they obviously have an overlap in tools and topics, but I think they should be separated, with a brief mention on each of the other type of mentoring.

To kick this off, I created a Formal mentoring page https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Formal_mentoring

Will have to move some the material around between the pages. I expect to create an Informal mentoring page. ultimately, the unqualified "Mentoring" page that exists now will either be a {{dab}} or we'll pick formal to be primary (since we're promoting its use!) and hatnotes to cross link.

Thoughts?


Qwaletee,

Good minds think alike...well, kind of alike. :)

We have considers doing this for a long time. If you look at the mentoring pages, we already distinguish between Formal and Informal mentoring and have been very exacting on trying to create a definition of Formal Mentoring. Orbit and I have been working with Waze Staff a bit on this.

Orbit was very deliberate in his structuring of the Mentoring pages because he wants this to be a global effort. He has been recruiting participation globally. Any new page ought to take this structure into account and have Orbit's and my participation in discussions like this one.

Our intent was that eventually we would have an Informal Mentoring page to separate out and go into detail about Informal Mentoring approaches and the training involved. Informal Mentoring is mentioned here: https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Mentoring/US ... _mentoring.

I would suggest that the MENTORING/USA page points to both Formal and Informal as it does now. Other countries can go their own way from the MENTORING (global) page as they see fit and do this or not, copy us or not.

An "Informal Mentoring" page would be great to extract out some of this content (which is very incomplete) and expand upon it. The "Informal Mentoring" concept is one reason I was a proponent for a number of new Wiki pages I have suggested including the canned URs that Mgodlew started, Diagnosing MPs and URs(which I have not seen many comments upon), and the WME Chat Wiki page which I wanted as a first resource to define how WME Chat can be used as informal mentoring.

This information is also embodied in some training that we've been developing:

Lecture 150: Mentoring

Creating a formal mentoring program

Lecture 930: Techniques for Formal Mentoring

Lecture 931: Formal Mentoring for Corrective Action

Lecture 950: Mentoring Champs

Some of these have useful material for informal mentoring because they can be used.

I would see an Informal Mentoring page as one that expands upon the above materials about informal mentoring and gives examples and resources to do informal mentoring. For instance the lectures, the webinars can all be in it. WME Chat can be in it. How to connect with other users (covered in WME Chat page ideas) through other means besides WME chat should be in it.

I would also venture to say that there should be some ethics associated with it too.

It would be great if you could take this and run with it and make some progress. I think Orbit and I are running kinda thin... (well, at least on time).
vectorspace
vectorspace
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:05 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 419 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:34 am

After discussing with orbitc off forum, I am going forward with this idea, and separating out the pages.
ImageImageImageImageNYImageImageImageImageImageImage
Formal Mentoring, Wiki
Useful Wiki pages
URs & etiquette | WME | Editing Manual | Quick-Start Guide | Best Map Editing Practices | Junctions
State specific Wiki | Forum
PesachZ
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 3982
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:51 am
Location: NY, USA (also NJ sometimes) {LC}
Has thanked: 1872 times
Been thanked: 1838 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby qwaletee » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:47 am

kent, can you weigh in on the page naming vs redirects? We currently have the two subpages primary named as Mentoring/subpage (Mentoring/Formal and Mentoring/Informal). There are plain-language redirects to these for "Formal mentoring" and "Informal mentoring"

However, this comes out looking very awkward and wonkish in the page titling. I would prefer to see the primary name be the simple, "English language" name.

There are other places where there is a clear benefit to using subpage naming. The very structured state pages need it for technical reasons. The country-specific pages need to make their scope as clear as possible, so they would have to be either Pagename (USA) or USA/Pagename. But here I only see awkwardness. the wiki software isn't really using them as subpages in any way, and there's no organizational benefit that I see.

If we need it this way for some technical or policy reason, I haven't figured that out.
US Champ / Country Manager | State Manager NY, NJ, PA, CT, MA, RI, VT, ME, NH | Northeast ARC | Mentor | Responding to Map Issues
qwaletee
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
 
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:42 am
Location: NYC Metro - Active throughout NE^2 (Northeast & New England)
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 1090 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:11 am

qwaletee wrote:kent, can you weigh in on the page naming vs redirects? We currently have the two subpages primary named as Mentoring/subpage (Mentoring/Formal and Mentoring/Informal). There are plain-language redirects to these for "Formal mentoring" and "Informal mentoring"

However, this comes out looking very awkward and wonkish in the page titling. I would prefer to see the primary name be the simple, "English language" name.

There are other places where there is a clear benefit to using subpage naming. The very structured state pages need it for technical reasons. The country-specific pages need to make their scope as clear as possible, so they would have to be either Pagename (USA) or USA/Pagename. But here I only see awkwardness. the wiki software isn't really using them as subpages in any way, and there's no organizational benefit that I see.

If we need it this way for some technical or policy reason, I haven't figured that out.

My intent with these was to build a clear structure, so everything is well defined, easy to find, and less fragmented. I hope to fit everything nicely into one of these pages.

Mentoring is an overview of the entire mentoring process, with brief descriptions of each of the subcategories. The subcategories are then detailed on their respective subpages Mentoring/Formal, Mentoring/Informal, and Mentoring/Resources. All of these pages contain global guidance.

Formal mentoring being the true focus of all of this, gets the most attention obviously, and therefore has deeper subpages for each country which implements it to use for their own specific content. Mentoring/Formal/USA, Mentoring/Formal/CR, etc. I intend to make two more pages here for global guidance related specifically to Formal Mentoring Guidelines, and Training, Mentoring/Formal/Guidelines, and Mentoring/Formal/Training, these would replace the two pages at Mentoring/Formal/USA/Guidelines, and Mentoring/Formal/USA/Training. Any remaining content from those two pages would be merged into the Mentoring/Formal/USA page, and then those pages could get deleted.
ImageImageImageImageNYImageImageImageImageImageImage
Formal Mentoring, Wiki
Useful Wiki pages
URs & etiquette | WME | Editing Manual | Quick-Start Guide | Best Map Editing Practices | Junctions
State specific Wiki | Forum
PesachZ
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 3982
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:51 am
Location: NY, USA (also NJ sometimes) {LC}
Has thanked: 1872 times
Been thanked: 1838 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:20 pm

qwaletee wrote:kent, can you weigh in on the page naming vs redirects?

I think PesachZ's summary answered the question and I agree with the current direction.

As far as any visible links on a page to a subpage, of course you can always enter alternate text. IMO, I doubt people will be confused by the page name itself given the benefits of keeping the subpage structure.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5051
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 1277 times
Been thanked: 1496 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby qwaletee » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:50 pm

I understand the rationale presented, but it is incomplete. I've done quite a bit of Wiki editing on multiple platforms, and while this seems to make sense, it actually doesn't.

In Wikis, the outline of a related set of pages has nothing to do with the naming of the pages. Subpage-style naming looks awkward, reads awkward, and the outline of related pages is not dependent on it -- you can have the same outline structure but name the pages any way you want.

For these reasons, Wikipedia actually no longer allows the use of subpages using this format it was once common there). You can accomplish the structure/outline but use "readable" names. Alternatives include using plain readable titles, adding the higher level identifier as a parenthetical to the end, and using index-style qualifiers -- Mentoring, formal; Mentoring, informal -- or even a mix -- Mentoring, formal (USA); Mentoring, formal (RC).

What's missing from the rationale:
* whether any consideration was given for the problems it creates (appearance and language)
* whether other approaches have been tried
* how use of other approaches has been found lacking
* how the pseudo-physical structure provides a concrete, measurable benefit

For example, this rationale, if written about the state pages would say:

The state pages use a series of templates that are based on an understanding of the page name structure. The naming of the subpages is hidden fro the end-user experience and mostly form the editing experience, so there is no clear benefit from using another naming structure. Any other naming structure would be somewhat more awkward to implement, and would certainly require massive rewriting of code. Perhaps other methods were not tried, but there was no other obvious solution to the problem anyway, as templating has some support for basepage name, which makes coding significantly easier.

That provides a clear rationale for the state naming structure, and addresses the possibility of alternatives and actual costs and benefits. The rationale provided here has none of that.
US Champ / Country Manager | State Manager NY, NJ, PA, CT, MA, RI, VT, ME, NH | Northeast ARC | Mentor | Responding to Map Issues
qwaletee
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
 
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:42 am
Location: NYC Metro - Active throughout NE^2 (Northeast & New England)
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 1090 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:20 pm

qwaletee wrote:I understand the rationale presented, but it is incomplete. I've done quite a bit of Wiki editing on multiple platforms, and while this seems to make sense, it actually doesn't.

In Wikis, the outline of a related set of pages has nothing to do with the naming of the pages. Subpage-style naming looks awkward, reads awkward, and the outline of related pages is not dependent on it -- you can have the same outline structure but name the pages any way you want.

For these reasons, Wikipedia actually no longer allows the use of subpages using this format it was once common there). You can accomplish the structure/outline but use "readable" names. Alternatives include using plain readable titles, adding the higher level identifier as a parenthetical to the end, and using index-style qualifiers -- Mentoring, formal; Mentoring, informal -- or even a mix -- Mentoring, formal (USA); Mentoring, formal (RC).

What's missing from the rationale:
* whether any consideration was given for the problems it creates (appearance and language)
* whether other approaches have been tried
* how use of other approaches has been found lacking
* how the pseudo-physical structure provides a concrete, measurable benefit

For example, this rationale, if written about the state pages would say:

The state pages use a series of templates that are based on an understanding of the page name structure. The naming of the subpages is hidden fro the end-user experience and mostly form the editing experience, so there is no clear benefit from using another naming structure. Any other naming structure would be somewhat more awkward to implement, and would certainly require massive rewriting of code. Perhaps other methods were not tried, but there was no other obvious solution to the problem anyway, as templating has some support for basepage name, which makes coding significantly easier.

That provides a clear rationale for the state naming structure, and addresses the possibility of alternatives and actual costs and benefits. The rationale provided here has none of that.

One benefit to the subpage naming structure is that all the related pages start to show up in the auto fill for the search as you start to type "Mentoring"

Sent using Tapatalk for Android 4.4.2
ImageImageImageImageNYImageImageImageImageImageImage
Formal Mentoring, Wiki
Useful Wiki pages
URs & etiquette | WME | Editing Manual | Quick-Start Guide | Best Map Editing Practices | Junctions
State specific Wiki | Forum
PesachZ
Wiki Master
Wiki Master
 
Posts: 3982
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:51 am
Location: NY, USA (also NJ sometimes) {LC}
Has thanked: 1872 times
Been thanked: 1838 times

Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:13 pm

qwaletee, I am not sure of your objective. The original reason the team added subpages to our wiki main namespace was to help keep pages organized and to more easily find related information when editing. It forced consistency between page types meaning people would not be using commas on some pages, parenthesis on others, etc.

You have made a number of opinion based statements as to readability, appearance, and language. I hope you recognize there are many opinions in our community, so we should be careful to not make statements of opinion as if they are facts. :D

If you have an alternate proposal for the Mentoring pages can you make it? And maybe you already did with:
qwaletee wrote:Mentoring, formal; Mentoring, informal -- or even a mix -- Mentoring, formal (USA); Mentoring, formal (RC).

If that is your proposal, IMO I don't see that those are any more or less readable. However, as you did say, there are other rationale that can be stated for any of these approaches and that might be helpful for everyone to understand both sides of these proposals.
kentsmith9
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5051
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: SF/SJ Bay Area of Northern California
Has thanked: 1277 times
Been thanked: 1496 times

Next

Return to Wiki Updates and Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users