[New page] Formal mentoring

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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:47 am

Not participating in the formal mentoring program, I will not voice my feedback very loudly, but I will say it seems like we could go down this page to separate the two into different pages. The main [[Mentoring]] page could be the initial start of all mentoring with a breakdown of the two types with the summary table of differences. They you have two separate pages from there on [[Mentoring/Informal]] and [[Mentoring/Formal]]. The Formal page could include some of the other content that I think is on separate pages now.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:20 pm

qwaletee wrote:kent, can you weigh in on the page naming vs redirects?

I think PesachZ's summary answered the question and I agree with the current direction.

As far as any visible links on a page to a subpage, of course you can always enter alternate text. IMO, I doubt people will be confused by the page name itself given the benefits of keeping the subpage structure.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:13 pm

qwaletee, I am not sure of your objective. The original reason the team added subpages to our wiki main namespace was to help keep pages organized and to more easily find related information when editing. It forced consistency between page types meaning people would not be using commas on some pages, parenthesis on others, etc.

You have made a number of opinion based statements as to readability, appearance, and language. I hope you recognize there are many opinions in our community, so we should be careful to not make statements of opinion as if they are facts. :D

If you have an alternate proposal for the Mentoring pages can you make it? And maybe you already did with:
qwaletee wrote:Mentoring, formal; Mentoring, informal -- or even a mix -- Mentoring, formal (USA); Mentoring, formal (RC).

If that is your proposal, IMO I don't see that those are any more or less readable. However, as you did say, there are other rationale that can be stated for any of these approaches and that might be helpful for everyone to understand both sides of these proposals.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:30 pm

For those not around in the original subpage discussions, the key advantage for subpages was to have a basepage that covered material for all countries and then individual countries could have a subpage under that with their specific or unique content. The Wiki automatically creates the breadcrumbs back to the basepage. You always know where you are in the hierarchy.

Using parenthesis or other punctuation does not provide the automatic breadcrumbs. Since many of our Wiki editors are not Wiki experts, we tried to automate as much of the infrastructure as possible.

Note that nearly everyone reading the Waze Wiki is a map editor. That implies some level of technical knowledge and experience. I personally have found these end users to be more adaptable to alternate logical structures than the typical Wikipedia reader.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:12 am

PesachZ wrote:Thanks for link and heads up. I researched it, and created {{Mentoring navbox}} which I've now used to replace the wiki outline on all mentoring pages.

Very nice work.

I was reviewing the template page and thought I would make one change recommendation. We try not to include section headings in templates because you don't know if a template is at a particular level of a page into which it is transcluded. You would be better off having the template simply be at the bottom of the page on its own. That way if there are other templates that are desired on the page, you can list them one after the other and they somewhat stack upon each other.

Note the new state template pages do have section heading separating the two template boxes I built, but the template does not include the section headings.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:15 am

It is up to you in the mentoring team, but nav boxes do not normally have so much messaging. In fact on Wikipedia you have nothing but the navbox itself. It is implied that you add content as needed, but you would not say it on the page with the navbox.

The Intel Wikipedia page is a good example.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:34 am

After discussing with orbitc off forum, I am going forward with this idea, and separating out the pages.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:11 am

qwaletee wrote:kent, can you weigh in on the page naming vs redirects? We currently have the two subpages primary named as Mentoring/subpage (Mentoring/Formal and Mentoring/Informal). There are plain-language redirects to these for "Formal mentoring" and "Informal mentoring"

However, this comes out looking very awkward and wonkish in the page titling. I would prefer to see the primary name be the simple, "English language" name.

There are other places where there is a clear benefit to using subpage naming. The very structured state pages need it for technical reasons. The country-specific pages need to make their scope as clear as possible, so they would have to be either Pagename (USA) or USA/Pagename. But here I only see awkwardness. the wiki software isn't really using them as subpages in any way, and there's no organizational benefit that I see.

If we need it this way for some technical or policy reason, I haven't figured that out.

My intent with these was to build a clear structure, so everything is well defined, easy to find, and less fragmented. I hope to fit everything nicely into one of these pages.

Mentoring is an overview of the entire mentoring process, with brief descriptions of each of the subcategories. The subcategories are then detailed on their respective subpages Mentoring/Formal, Mentoring/Informal, and Mentoring/Resources. All of these pages contain global guidance.

Formal mentoring being the true focus of all of this, gets the most attention obviously, and therefore has deeper subpages for each country which implements it to use for their own specific content. Mentoring/Formal/USA, Mentoring/Formal/CR, etc. I intend to make two more pages here for global guidance related specifically to Formal Mentoring Guidelines, and Training, Mentoring/Formal/Guidelines, and Mentoring/Formal/Training, these would replace the two pages at Mentoring/Formal/USA/Guidelines, and Mentoring/Formal/USA/Training. Any remaining content from those two pages would be merged into the Mentoring/Formal/USA page, and then those pages could get deleted.
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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:20 pm

qwaletee wrote:I understand the rationale presented, but it is incomplete. I've done quite a bit of Wiki editing on multiple platforms, and while this seems to make sense, it actually doesn't.

In Wikis, the outline of a related set of pages has nothing to do with the naming of the pages. Subpage-style naming looks awkward, reads awkward, and the outline of related pages is not dependent on it -- you can have the same outline structure but name the pages any way you want.

For these reasons, Wikipedia actually no longer allows the use of subpages using this format it was once common there). You can accomplish the structure/outline but use "readable" names. Alternatives include using plain readable titles, adding the higher level identifier as a parenthetical to the end, and using index-style qualifiers -- Mentoring, formal; Mentoring, informal -- or even a mix -- Mentoring, formal (USA); Mentoring, formal (RC).

What's missing from the rationale:
* whether any consideration was given for the problems it creates (appearance and language)
* whether other approaches have been tried
* how use of other approaches has been found lacking
* how the pseudo-physical structure provides a concrete, measurable benefit

For example, this rationale, if written about the state pages would say:

The state pages use a series of templates that are based on an understanding of the page name structure. The naming of the subpages is hidden fro the end-user experience and mostly form the editing experience, so there is no clear benefit from using another naming structure. Any other naming structure would be somewhat more awkward to implement, and would certainly require massive rewriting of code. Perhaps other methods were not tried, but there was no other obvious solution to the problem anyway, as templating has some support for basepage name, which makes coding significantly easier.

That provides a clear rationale for the state naming structure, and addresses the possibility of alternatives and actual costs and benefits. The rationale provided here has none of that.

One benefit to the subpage naming structure is that all the related pages start to show up in the auto fill for the search as you start to type "Mentoring"

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Re: [New page] Formal mentoring

Postby PesachZ » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:20 pm

I've also been debating using a hybrid of the stem you suggested, while leaving the current subpage links in place as redirects to help with search.

So I would have pages for
  • Mentoring
  • Formal mentoring
    • Formal mentoring (USA)
    • Formal mentoring (Costa Rica)
    • etc. for all supporting countries
  • Informal mentoring
  • Formal mentoring resources
  • Formal mentoring guidelines
  • Formal mentoring training

However this seems to be contrary to the recent trend in Waze having subpages over parenthetical names (See Road names/USA which used to be Road names (USA) ).

I would also include an outline sorting the hierarchy on the bottom of all mentoring pages, linking to all the others, and placing the Mentoring category.

Code: Select all
=== Mentoring program wiki outline ===

The following pages constitute the Waze Mentoring Program, and are meant to complement each other.

[[Mentoring]]
*[[Formal mentoring|Formal Mentoring]]
**[[Formal mentoring guidelines|Formal Mentoring Guidelines]]
** [[Formal mentoring training|Formal Mentoring Training]]
** [[Formal mentoring (USA)|Formal Mentoring (USA)]]
** [[Formal mentoring (USA)|Formal Mentoring (Costa Rica)]]
**Etc for all supporting countries
*[[Informal mentoring|Informal Mentoring]]
*[[Mentoring resources|Mentoring Resources]]
[[Category: Mentoring]]


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