[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

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[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:40 am

On 12 January, text was added to the Map Editing Quick-start Guide regarding the U-turn indicator that remains in the present wiki:
Map Editing Quick-start Guide wrote:NOTE: The U-Turn doesn't have a proper navigation announcement (i.e. "Make A U-Turn"), but it will still route you that way. The current policy is to disable all U-Turns UNLESS the road is a divided highway that doesn't meet the requirements to be split.

But, one doesn't use the U-turn turn restriction for divided highways, right? Rather one enables a double-left or a bowtie hard left. So doesn't this policy basically say that the U-turn turn restriction should always be red, everywhere, everyplace, all the time?

If that is the correct interpretation of the text, and that really is current policy, I'd like to modify the quick-start guide to be clearer, something like: "The current policy is not to use the U-turn turn restriction under any circumstances. It should always be set red to disallow U-turns regardless of whether local law or signage permit U-turns. At such time as U-turn voice instructions are implemented this policy will likely change."

Like many of us who process URs in an urban area, I see many URs complaining about the lack of U-turns in routes. Should I tell reporters -- and please, forgive the blunt language, I don't mind positive spin but I also want to be honest and concise -- "Waze considers U-turns when preparing a route, but unfortunately it cannot yet give U-turn voice instructions. To avoid routing drivers in a way that will lack critical voice instructions, the editing community has decided to disable nearly all U-turns, including this one, for the indefinite future." :shock:
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby davielde » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:38 am

If it's a divided highway that's split in Waze, enabling the normal turns for the median crossovers or intersections handles the u-turns, so the Waze U should still be disabled. For divided highways that are not split roads in Waze, enabling the Waze U should still be discouraged at this time because it's not just the voice instructions but all instructions that are off. Perhaps that should factor into someone's decision to split a road.

As an example, you would not be doing users a favor to have the following behavior on any road, not simply a divided highway that's not split in Waze. As seen in the screenshot, the next turn is in three miles--behind you...?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1404005850.099314.jpg
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:17 am

Thanks, sounds like support for the suggested clarification (?).

davielde wrote:For divided highways that are not split roads in Waze, enabling the Waze U should still be discouraged at this time because it's not just the voice instructions but all instructions that are off. Perhaps that should factor into someone's decision to split a road.

Getting slightly OT but I would like to understand this better. It sounds like you would advise that all roads divided in reality should also be split in Waze?

I'm aware of the issue with Waze thinking an address on the opposite side of the road is accessible when in reality it isn't and a U-turn is required to reach it. But it seems to me there are a lot of situations where that isn't a problem. Are there other things besides that issue? And, the Best map editing practice wiki says splitting is generally only done for MH and F types and goes out of its way to say that the mere presence of a non-drivable median is not enough to split a road in Waze...I guess I'm confused :? but I'm confused a lot of the time :D
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:22 am

I do see now that I misinterpreted the originally-quoted wiki guidance. It is saying it is OK to set the U-turn restriction to green on a highway that is NOT split in Waze but is divided in reality. Which is why davielde responded that such situations are discouraged as well.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby davielde » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:59 am

DwarfLord wrote:Thanks, sounds like support for the suggested clarification (?).

Since I couldn't re-read the OP in Tapatalk, I suppose it was support :) . At the very least, I would recommend removing everything from "UNLESS" onward from the existing wiki guidance.

DwarfLord wrote:
davielde wrote:For divided highways that are not split roads in Waze, enabling the Waze U should still be discouraged at this time because it's not just the voice instructions but all instructions that are off. Perhaps that should factor into someone's decision to split a road.

Getting slightly OT but I would like to understand this better. It sounds like you would advise that all roads divided in reality should also be split in Waze?

No, I would not advise that all divided roads in reality should be split roads in Waze. The presence of or need for u-turns could factor into an editor's decision but should not be the only criteria. I'm fine with the existing criteria for split roads, one aspect of which is "U-turns are required to properly make turns that are blocked by a median".
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:34 pm

In an offline but timely discussion I was told, in the case of U-turns demanded on a road divided in reality but not split in Waze, that I should consider splitting it in the neighborhood of the junction, making a bowtie, and enabling the hard left. Interesting! OK, so here is my suggested modification to guidance:

Suggested new U-turn guidance wrote:NOTE: As of this writing (June 2014) Waze does not produce any voice announcement for U-turns. It may consider and use U-turns in routing but it cannot instruct the driver to perform one. Due to the confusion this could cause among drivers, the current policy is not to enable (set to green) the U-turn restriction under any circumstances whatsoever. Keep all U-turn restrictions red everywhere, even in cases where local law or signage permit U-turns, and regardless of whether drivers are complaining that U-turns should be enabled. Of course, at such time as Waze implements U-turn voice instructions, this policy will likely change.

In the meantime, if U-turns are demanded for proper routing in the specific case of a road divided by a median strip but not shown as split in Waze, the recommended approach is to split at least a short section of the road near the intersection and use a bowtie with the hard left turn enabled. This effectively allows U-turns using a "turn left" voice instruction.


For reference, the current language says:

Existing U-turn guidance wrote:NOTE: The U-Turn doesn't have a proper navigation announcement (i.e. "Make A U-Turn"), but it will still route you that way. The current policy is to disable all U-Turns UNLESS the road is a divided highway that doesn't meet the requirements to be split.


Concurrence?
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:56 am

Just be sure to use the {{As of}} template so we can find this guidance in the future since we know it will eventually change.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:14 pm

OK, I have made the changes to the turn-restriction part of the Map Editing Quick-start Guide using the {{As of}} template.

In addition to the text, I used the {{As of}} template to add prohibitions in the table of turn icons. So you have a nice picture of a green U-turn arrow, a nice little description of what it does, and then big boldface text that says never use it.

Comments still quite welcome. I just wanted to get this out as it was a point of tremendous confusion. This kind of thing is just horribly counterintuitive to me and I felt it deserved more explicit documentation.

I wonder if non-red U-turn arrows should be added to WME Validator so we can identify and eliminate them more effectively?
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:46 pm

davielde wrote:As an example, you would not be doing users a favor to have the following behavior on any road, not simply a divided highway that's not split in Waze. As seen in the screenshot, the next turn is in three miles--behind you...?

Interesting. When U-Turns were enabled in the editor, I set up a bunch in my neighborhood in order to see when they were working in the client, but I have never seen any on-screen navigation show the U-Turn in action with or without the voice navigation. However I am not sure what else would cause your on screen example other than this. If true, this is really sad because so many people have been setting U-Turn instructions in the streets of SF one by one to get them ready when it works. This guidance says to disable all of them and start over when it comes back. Maybe there is a better way on the app side that we can get ways to implement.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:07 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:If true, this is really sad because so many people have been setting U-Turn instructions in the streets of SF one by one to get them ready when it works. This guidance says to disable all of them and start over when it comes back.

That's why I couldn't believe it at first, and why clarifying the wiki was so painful. I've done my share of meticulous U-turn setting with careful Street View inspection when I thought the feature was supported, which was until quite recently. The idea that we are to rip it all out is just horrible beyond words. But that appears to be current consensus guidance.
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