[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Moderator: Unholy

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby CBenson » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:19 pm

I agree. I don't understand why there is a difference from a user routing perspective. But I've yet to hear anyone from waze state that this needs to happen.
CBenson
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm
Location: Crownsville, MD, US
Has thanked: 1069 times
Been thanked: 2355 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:13 pm

Or the real-time server needs to be updated in line with the normal routing server. Really, that's what should happen.
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5846
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1385 times
Been thanked: 1880 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby CBenson » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:57 pm

sketch wrote:So maybe it's a real time vs. normal routing server problem.

If that is the case, then we need to edit for the real time server routing. As far as I can tell the normal routing server adds additional penalties that do not seem to be taken into account for real time routing. Thus the detour prevention mechanisms and the u-turn prevention mechanism for split roads (the 15m U-turn prevention) seem not to apply to real time routing. This difference between real-time routing and "normal" routing is becoming a significant problem. If the real-time routing server will route off and back on the highway, then we should keep all the turn restrictions we used to prevent that bad routing. If the 15m U-turn rule doesn't prevent the real-time routing server from routing through illegal U-turns, then we should use other methods to prevent routing through such U-turns. If the penalty to prevent U-turns back to the same segment is different between the "normal" routing server and the real-time server and disabling U-turns prevents U-turns on the real-time server, then we should be disabling U-turns.
CBenson
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm
Location: Crownsville, MD, US
Has thanked: 1069 times
Been thanked: 2355 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:45 pm

CBenson wrote:
sketch wrote:U turns should not be seen at all in routes. If it happens, staff wants to know. Staff wishes, last I heard, are that we leave U turns enabled as they should be, and to report them to staff if they are used despite the massive penalty that's supposed to make them not be given.

I am willing to agree to the change to the guidance based on this staff recommendation. However, if we do see U-turns, let waze know, and the response is - oh waze will route through U-turns to avoid heavy traffic, then I will want to change the guidance back.

Waze has stated recently that they hope to have actual U turn support in the client "really soon"—god knows what exactly that means, though.

I've heard that these bad U turns are only given after a route recalculation of some sort, maybe a traffic-based one. So maybe it's a real time vs. normal routing server problem. But it may become moot before we have time for any real findings.

We could also put it in the California wiki for now not to enable U turns in L.A. because that's where it's been a problem, maybe. It only seems to happen in places notorious for traffic, so maybe we only need to compensate in certain places.

It's a balancing act. It's kind of two different balancing acts: one concerns whether we want to allow Waze to look at and hopefully fix the penalty now; the other concerns whether we want the map to be ready for upcoming U turn support. It's impossible to answer "no" to one and "yes" to the other and apply it. So the options are "yes" to both, "no" to both, or a balancing between the priorities if your answers are "yes" for one and "no" for the other.
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5846
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1385 times
Been thanked: 1880 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby voludu2 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:02 pm

voludu2
Map Editor - Level 5
Map Editor - Level 5
 
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:33 pm
Location: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby CBenson » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:38 pm

If I understand correctly, what is being said is that Ottonomy's observation from July of
ottonomy wrote:First, there is no doubt that Waze does occasionally include U-turns at the ends of single two-way segments in its routing, when the turns are enabled in WME, and it has a compelling reason to do so. It seems to me almost as if there is some light penalty attached to this, because of the relative rarity of the occurrences.
is now said to be obsolete. We are under the impression that waze has adjusted the routing (possibly the small detour mechanism) to prevent U-turns. So now we can enable U-turns in the editor.

I have reservations. Ottonomy goes on to note:
ottonomy wrote:U-turns under other conditions are more frequent for me. Not common, but not exactly rare. I speculated in my previous post that Waze may assess a penalty when considering a U-turn (on an un-split road), such that the routing server will consider other options first. Let me explain what makes me think this. The likelihood that I will be given a U-turn in my route goes up exponentially with the heaviness of the traffic around me. I never get them when driving in the late evening, or in more remote, less crowded areas.

Between 4 and 6PM, there are parts of LA where streets in close proximity to the freeways become so gridlocked that it can literally take 15 to 30 minutes to traverse a single city block, and it's times and places like these when Waze is most likely to throw me a U-turn, rather than sending me around the block, like it usually would. in other words, instances which might overcome penalties.
If the penalties for routing U-turns when enabled in the editor are not sufficient to prevent U-turns (or if the real-time server fails implements a lesser penalty or applies no penalty) then I think we will be causing problems by enabling U-turns prior to the proper addition of a U-turn instruction to the routing instructions.

sketch wrote:U turns should not be seen at all in routes. If it happens, staff wants to know. Staff wishes, last I heard, are that we leave U turns enabled as they should be, and to report them to staff if they are used despite the massive penalty that's supposed to make them not be given.

I am willing to agree to the change to the guidance based on this staff recommendation. However, if we do see U-turns, let waze know, and the response is - oh waze will route through U-turns to avoid heavy traffic, then I will want to change the guidance back.
CBenson
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm
Location: Crownsville, MD, US
Has thanked: 1069 times
Been thanked: 2355 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby voludu2 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:22 pm

too much repetition. I'll do it, and blame you if anyone complains ;)
voludu2
Map Editor - Level 5
Map Editor - Level 5
 
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:33 pm
Location: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby driving79 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:03 pm

Take out "but not necessary" at he end of the first sentence, and I think it's great.
driving79
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:45 am
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 1045 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby voludu2 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:51 pm

Here is a simplified version with repetition for good measure. Any votes AGAINST just shoving this in?
As of November 2014, it is OK but not necessary to allow the U-turn arrow where appropriate, but not necessary. At this time, Waze completely ignores the U-turn arrow in routing. At some time in the future, Waze might become capable of using the U-turn arrow. This advice replaces the advice from June 2014, which was to disable all U-turn arrows. As of November 2014, it is no longer necessary to disable u-turn arrows because Waze ignores them
voludu2
Map Editor - Level 5
Map Editor - Level 5
 
Posts: 2399
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:33 pm
Location: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby driving79 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:22 pm

If the u-turn arrow is correct, it is a 2-way segment and there is a legit u-turn, then leave it alone. No need to change it back to not allowed like we were doing. Waze routing does not currently use the u-turns, but once it does (correctly) then it will be ok.
driving79
US Waze Champs
US Waze Champs
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:45 am
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 138 times
Been thanked: 1045 times

PreviousNext

Return to Wiki Updates and Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users