[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:31 pm

I just sent a message to Waze staff asking them to confirm this cannot somehow by fixed temporarily in the client to ignore U-turn guidance (until it is fully enabled in the client). The amount of work that has been done by the Waze editing community is incredible to just throw it away! :evil:
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby qwaletee » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:29 pm

I bit that bullet a long time ago. I probably put confirmed/denied hundreds of U-turns, and then set them all back to denied.

Funny, I interpreted the "Waze will consider U-turns..." to mean that the server will spend time examining them, but then treat them as costly or s/t like that to prevent them actually getting used. I can't for teh life of me understand the policy -- either Waze NEVER gives a U-turn instruction because it can't, in which case, why all the fuss about making sure they are all disabled? Or, Waze CAN give such an instruction, but rarely does (never seen it documented), in which case, why aren't we setting them up correctly?

This business f "to prevent driver confusion" is Just Plain Wrong. If Waze can't give the instruction, it can't confuse the driver. If Waze can give the instruction, it cna't confuse the driver.

The only possibilities that make sense are:

1) Waze can give some on-screen indication of U-turn that is inconsistent with voice and/or some other part of the on-screen route description. That oculd in fact cause driver confusion.

2) Has nothing to do with drivers, Waze just simply doesn't want the routing server to waste time examining a U-turn that it will ultimately not use.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:35 pm

qwaletee wrote:either Waze NEVER gives a U-turn instruction because it can't, in which case, why all the fuss about making sure they are all disabled? Or, Waze CAN give such an instruction, but rarely does (never seen it documented), in which case, why aren't we setting them up correctly?

If I follow what others are saying, Waze CANNOT give a voice announcement for a U-turn, but it CAN provide a route that requires one. If both were CANNOT, or both were CAN, everything would be fine.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:24 pm

DwarfLord wrote:
qwaletee wrote:either Waze NEVER gives a U-turn instruction because it can't, in which case, why all the fuss about making sure they are all disabled? Or, Waze CAN give such an instruction, but rarely does (never seen it documented), in which case, why aren't we setting them up correctly?

If I follow what others are saying, Waze CANNOT give a voice announcement for a U-turn, but it CAN provide a route that requires one. If both were CANNOT, or both were CAN, everything would be fine.

Based on what was posted earlier in the thread, the Waze route includes the U-Turn in the navigation, but fails to send the instruction to TTS and the display list, so the driver has no idea what happened.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:55 pm

FYI, Waze is proposing, and it is currently as such in the beta editor as of today, that u-turns on dead ends cannot be edited. We don't yet know whether this means enabled/restricted, or whatever was set when that feature was removed, etc. Very little data available. Just thought I should throw a heads-up.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby ottonomy » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:44 am

It sounds as if some of you commenting on this thread may never have experienced the current U-turn behavior in the app. I find this surprising, but not impossible to believe. I thought that davielde's post and screenshot made it all clear, but let me try to very clearly elucidate my own experience with this.

First, there is no doubt that Waze does occasionally include U-turns at the ends of single two-way segments in its routing, when the turns are enabled in WME, and it has a compelling reason to do so. It seems to me almost as if there is some light penalty attached to this, because of the relative rarity of the occurrences.

Second, routing is not to be confused with on-screen turn instructions or TTS in this context. Waze routes the U-turn, but it gives no visual or audible indication of the turn whatsoever.

This is what you will see/hear when Waze routes a U-turn on an un-split road. Your highlighted route will appear to terminate abruptly in front of you, at whatever junction the routing server has chosen for the turn. What it's actually doing is doubling back upon itself, and going back under you, but there's nothing about the graphic which suggests that this is the case.

At the top of the screen, the turn instruction you see is what will be the next turn, after the U, which could be anything from feet to miles away. If the next turn is in very close proximity, the displayed distance-to-turn may be an accurate count of the number of feet to the U-turn, even though the displayed turn is not the U. In others cases, it will be the distance to the next turn.

If the next turn is distant, there will probably be no audible prompt at all as you approach the U. If the next turn is more or less immediate after the U, its prompt may be heard at the point where you would expect to hear the prompt for the U instead.

All of this is mind-bending even for an experienced driver and Wazer. It's utterly baffling, and throw-your-phone-out-the-window stupid for someone who needs a real helping hand from a navigation app.

See and hear:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/v64gssa07phrin ... Prompt.m4v

U-Turn.jpg
U-Turn.jpg (103.96 KiB) Viewed 927 times
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:09 am

When U turns are actually given

It seems rare. According to staff, the old problem where dead-end U turns used to be used erroneously shouldn't occur anymore, because of the small detour prevention mechanism, implemented early 2014. I haven't seen an example of it since then, so maybe it is actually working for this particular case.

Aside from the dead-end problem which I experienced only once, I have only ever seen U turns given by the routing server after getting off the freeway in a rural area, with no viable way to turn around using roads. Example: screenshot below.

The screenshots uploaded by davielde and ottonomy

When did those occur? Because something has changed. It used to do this:

Image

No TTS instruction, but it did have the instruction on screen, at least.

The future of U turns, according to Waze

Proper U turn support is coming at some point, but when? Who knows.

Bowties

I am of the opinion that bowties should never be used where U turns are permitted. "Turn left on [x]" is utterly confusing when what you have to actually do is make a U turn. The entire reason bowties exist is to prevent U turns. Keep the road split like normal so it can say "Turn left on [y] then turn left on [x]".

What should the guidance be?

I would support enabling U turns only on actually-divided highways that are not divided ("split") in Waze, for the time being. In my experience, it only happens very rarely, so I don't think it'll cause a whole lot of confusion. After all, if the driver just drives past that point, they'll get a recalculation. If it gives them another U turn after that, they'll probably figure it out.
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[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby davielde » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:55 pm

sketch wrote:The screenshots uploaded by davielde and ottonomy

When did those occur?

March 2014 on 3.7.8 with iOS for mine. When did your screenshot occur for the "used to", and was in shown in a beta at that point?
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:45 am

Oh, I thought I said that. That screenshot is from November 2012. That's a production client.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby ottonomy » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:15 pm

sketch wrote:It seems rare.

Spend a week driving the afternoon rush in LA, and no odd Waze behavior will seem all that rare anymore ;-)

sketch wrote:According to staff, the old problem where dead-end U turns used to be used erroneously shouldn't occur anymore, because of the small detour prevention mechanism, implemented early 2014. I haven't seen an example of it since then, so maybe it is actually working for this particular case.

Aside from the dead-end problem which I experienced only once..

I think I've only been given the dead-end turn-around U-turn route once, and that was in 2012. I have, however, seen URs with suggested routes which appear to have been such turnarounds, and fairly recently. Can you more narrowly define "early 2014"?

U-turns under other conditions are more frequent for me. Not common, but not exactly rare. I speculated in my previous post that Waze may assess a penalty when considering a U-turn (on an un-split road), such that the routing server will consider other options first. Let me explain what makes me think this. The likelihood that I will be given a U-turn in my route goes up exponentially with the heaviness of the traffic around me. I never get them when driving in the late evening, or in more remote, less crowded areas.

Between 4 and 6PM, there are parts of LA where streets in close proximity to the freeways become so gridlocked that it can literally take 15 to 30 minutes to traverse a single city block, and it's times and places like these when Waze is most likely to throw me a U-turn, rather than sending me around the block, like it usually would. in other words, instances which might overcome penalties.

Take the situation in my screenshot, for example. Here's a view from before I approached the turn. I panned ahead, to see why Waze was having me turn the "wrong" way on 120th St.
U-Turn-2.jpg
U-Turn-2.jpg (87.81 KiB) Viewed 828 times

You can see what Waze was up to here. The normal route is to take a right at 120th, and then another right onto the ramp for I-105 E, the tail of which can be seen in bright scarlet red on the right. It was stacked with a line of cars waiting for the meter to enter the freeway. Because that ramp was jammed, it made more sense to Waze for me to turn the other way, make a U, and get on the ramp from NB Crenshaw instead. This wasn't a situation where there was no other practical way to route me. The U was just a faster way. But in my experience, Waze would never suggest this if the other on-ramp were only half as jammed. I know, because this is a regular route for me.

sketch wrote:The screenshots uploaded by davielde and ottonomy

When did those occur? Because something has changed. It used to do this...

My screenshot is from March 28, 2014. I don't recall ever having seen an actual U prompt on screen, and believe me, when I get a route with a U in it, I'm staring at my screen and trying to figure out what Waze is doing. I was also wondering whether your shot was from a beta build or production. At least since the beginning of 2013, there have not been any on-screen arrows or instructions which suggest that a U-turn is ahead, where the highlighted route just stops.

sketch wrote:Bowties

I am of the opinion that bowties should never be used where U turns are permitted.


Agreed on generally limiting the use of bow-ties, but I think you are overlooking the best use-case for them, which is the ability to selectively allow U-turns in different directions at a given intersection. In your part of the country, are there few locations where U-turns are only legal in one, two, or three out of four directions? We have that sort of arrangement at every other intersection in LA, it seems, and they are often in areas where the only alternative to a U is a very long and ugly detour. I don't like bow-ties any more than anyone else does, but until we have junction boxes, they serve a purpose, and not exclusively that of disallowing U-turns.

My own dislike for bow-ties is what led me, in my earlier editing days, to make much heavier use of at-grade connectors for left turns. They can effectively allow or disallow U-turns, but don't fit every situation. I still use them occasionally, but have had so many of mine deleted by the CM clutter police, I resort more often to bow-ties, because they're more likely to stick around.

sketch wrote:Bowties

... "Turn left on [x]" is utterly confusing when what you have to actually do is make a U turn. The entire reason bowties exist is to prevent U turns. Keep the road split like normal so it can say "Turn left on [y] then turn left on [x]".

What should the guidance be?

I would support enabling U turns only on actually-divided highways that are not divided ("split") in Waze, for the time being. In my experience, it only happens very rarely, so I don't think it'll cause a whole lot of confusion. After all, if the driver just drives past that point, they'll get a recalculation. If it gives them another U turn after that, they'll probably figure it out.


While I do agree with you that "Turn left onto [the road you're on]" is potentially confusing, I don't see how "Turn left onto [something], and then turn left onto [the road you're on]" is really much less confusing. They are both bad prompts, and swinging a U hardly resembles a two-turn maneuver than it does a single turn. Yes, it's nice to hear the name that will be on the sign where you'll be making the initial turn, but that doesn't always happen. Because of issues like street name changes at intersections, we often leave the cross segments un-named. In those cases, the double prompt names the street you're on twice.

But in any of these bow-tie or regular-split intersection cases, a quick look down at the screen will show you a highlighted route with a clear turn-around point ahead. It's an understandable visual cue.

I'm not sure how you can say that a bow-tie prompt is "utterly confusing", but in the next breath more or less dismiss the far more baffling (lack of) instructions for an un-split road U-turn. I don't think you are considering just how confusing that can be, and how frustrating it is when it happens at a time and place where a mistake and recalculation can cost all the time savings for which you were using Waze in the first place.
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