[Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:45 pm

CBenson wrote:
sketch wrote:U turns should not be seen at all in routes. If it happens, staff wants to know. Staff wishes, last I heard, are that we leave U turns enabled as they should be, and to report them to staff if they are used despite the massive penalty that's supposed to make them not be given.

I am willing to agree to the change to the guidance based on this staff recommendation. However, if we do see U-turns, let waze know, and the response is - oh waze will route through U-turns to avoid heavy traffic, then I will want to change the guidance back.

Waze has stated recently that they hope to have actual U turn support in the client "really soon"—god knows what exactly that means, though.

I've heard that these bad U turns are only given after a route recalculation of some sort, maybe a traffic-based one. So maybe it's a real time vs. normal routing server problem. But it may become moot before we have time for any real findings.

We could also put it in the California wiki for now not to enable U turns in L.A. because that's where it's been a problem, maybe. It only seems to happen in places notorious for traffic, so maybe we only need to compensate in certain places.

It's a balancing act. It's kind of two different balancing acts: one concerns whether we want to allow Waze to look at and hopefully fix the penalty now; the other concerns whether we want the map to be ready for upcoming U turn support. It's impossible to answer "no" to one and "yes" to the other and apply it. So the options are "yes" to both, "no" to both, or a balancing between the priorities if your answers are "yes" for one and "no" for the other.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:54 pm

voludu2 wrote:I thought the current "disable all u-turns" policy was in response to this:
DwarfLord wrote:There is the issue discussed in this thread where Waze will provide a route that requires a U-turn but will not give any instructions to do so, which is mind-bogglingly confusing to the driver.


Therefore the decision to disable u-turns everywhere to prevent this happening, and to split roads where U-turns are absolutely necessary -- in effect, the u-turn instructions problem has led to more split roads.

U turns should not be seen at all in routes. If it happens, staff wants to know. Staff wishes, last I heard, are that we leave U turns enabled as they should be, and to report them to staff if they are used despite the massive penalty that's supposed to make them not be given.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:40 pm

I agree, and to be honest, I don't know why we don't have those arrow overlays every other GPS provider seems to have. They'd make turns etc. a lot easier to see.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:56 am

Agreed on generally limiting the use of bow-ties, but I think you are overlooking the best use-case for them, which is the ability to selectively allow U-turns in different directions at a given intersection. In your part of the country, are there few locations where U-turns are only legal in one, two, or three out of four directions? We have that sort of arrangement at every other intersection in LA, it seems, and they are often in areas where the only alternative to a U is a very long and ugly detour. I don't like bow-ties any more than anyone else does, but until we have junction boxes, they serve a purpose, and not exclusively that of disallowing U-turns.

My own dislike for bow-ties is what led me, in my earlier editing days, to make much heavier use of at-grade connectors for left turns. They can effectively allow or disallow U-turns, but don't fit every situation. I still use them occasionally, but have had so many of mine deleted by the CM clutter police, I resort more often to bow-ties, because they're more likely to stick around.

Well, times do change, and fleshing out the guidance means you'll have something to point to (which CMs should be familiar with anyway). Fortuitously, a few such intersections can be controlled adequately simply by disabling left turns which are disallowed anyway. Others can't, but there are other solutions, like AGCs and box-diagonals, all of which can be configured to give the "turn left then turn left" instruction.

While I do agree with you that "Turn left onto [the road you're on]" is potentially confusing, I don't see how "Turn left onto [something], and then turn left onto [the road you're on]" is really much less confusing. They are both bad prompts, and swinging a U hardly resembles a two-turn maneuver than it does a single turn. Yes, it's nice to hear the name that will be on the sign where you'll be making the initial turn, but that doesn't always happen. Because of issues like street name changes at intersections, we often leave the cross segments un-named. In those cases, the double prompt names the street you're on twice.

But in any of these bow-tie or regular-split intersection cases, a quick look down at the screen will show you a highlighted route with a clear turn-around point ahead. It's an understandable visual cue.

Maybe "turn left then turn left" is a "bad prompt", but at least it's accurate. "Turn left" is just plain wrong. We have to recall that not every user is always looking at the screen while using Waze – some don't have dash mounts, resorting to cupholders, and so forth. If "turn left then turn left" is odd, then at the least it might prompt the user to take a look at the phone to try and figure out what it's telling them to do.

And actually, the double prompt no longer names the street you're on twice in those situations. With the TTS changes in 3.8, it will now say "Turn left then turn left on Street-youre-on Blvd".


I'm not sure how you can say that a bow-tie prompt is "utterly confusing", but in the next breath more or less dismiss the far more baffling (lack of) instructions for an un-split road U-turn. I don't think you are considering just how confusing that can be, and how frustrating it is when it happens at a time and place where a mistake and recalculation can cost all the time savings for which you were using Waze in the first place.

Because you, as an editor, never need to choose between the two. Either the road is unsplit and your choices are "don't allow U turns" or "no instruction at all", or the road is split and your choices are "turn left" (bowtie) or "turn left then turn left" (two lefts make a U...).
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:45 am

Oh, I thought I said that. That screenshot is from November 2012. That's a production client.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby sketch » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:09 am

When U turns are actually given

It seems rare. According to staff, the old problem where dead-end U turns used to be used erroneously shouldn't occur anymore, because of the small detour prevention mechanism, implemented early 2014. I haven't seen an example of it since then, so maybe it is actually working for this particular case.

Aside from the dead-end problem which I experienced only once, I have only ever seen U turns given by the routing server after getting off the freeway in a rural area, with no viable way to turn around using roads. Example: screenshot below.

The screenshots uploaded by davielde and ottonomy

When did those occur? Because something has changed. It used to do this:

Image

No TTS instruction, but it did have the instruction on screen, at least.

The future of U turns, according to Waze

Proper U turn support is coming at some point, but when? Who knows.

Bowties

I am of the opinion that bowties should never be used where U turns are permitted. "Turn left on [x]" is utterly confusing when what you have to actually do is make a U turn. The entire reason bowties exist is to prevent U turns. Keep the road split like normal so it can say "Turn left on [y] then turn left on [x]".

What should the guidance be?

I would support enabling U turns only on actually-divided highways that are not divided ("split") in Waze, for the time being. In my experience, it only happens very rarely, so I don't think it'll cause a whole lot of confusion. After all, if the driver just drives past that point, they'll get a recalculation. If it gives them another U turn after that, they'll probably figure it out.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby redviper26 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:21 am

Both :)
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby redviper26 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:29 am

Hey guys,

Can you send permalinks of routes affected by this issue?

Thanks,

Noam
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby qwaletee » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:29 pm

I bit that bullet a long time ago. I probably put confirmed/denied hundreds of U-turns, and then set them all back to denied.

Funny, I interpreted the "Waze will consider U-turns..." to mean that the server will spend time examining them, but then treat them as costly or s/t like that to prevent them actually getting used. I can't for teh life of me understand the policy -- either Waze NEVER gives a U-turn instruction because it can't, in which case, why all the fuss about making sure they are all disabled? Or, Waze CAN give such an instruction, but rarely does (never seen it documented), in which case, why aren't we setting them up correctly?

This business f "to prevent driver confusion" is Just Plain Wrong. If Waze can't give the instruction, it can't confuse the driver. If Waze can give the instruction, it cna't confuse the driver.

The only possibilities that make sense are:

1) Waze can give some on-screen indication of U-turn that is inconsistent with voice and/or some other part of the on-screen route description. That oculd in fact cause driver confusion.

2) Has nothing to do with drivers, Waze just simply doesn't want the routing server to waste time examining a U-turn that it will ultimately not use.
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Re: [Clarify/Update Page] U-turn policy?

Postby purposeguy » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:56 am

Yeah, this really bummed me out, too. I had started allowing U-turns in my neighborhood when I caught wind of what was going on in the forums. I've since been "on patrol," removing U-turns wherever I find them. I look forward to U-turns being implemented in the client, since they are legal by default throughout California.
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