Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby scubbladub » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:34 am

jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:
titchy_ wrote:There is a difference between an alert for a pothole in the road or a police trap which act as a warning compared to a road closure which will alter the route. If you see a 'road closed' sign and report it without any further investigation, how can you be sure that in 10 minutes time it won't be cleared and the road re-opened?

Just because I don't agree with your suggestion doesn't mean I am against any criticism of Waze. I have given plenty myself and there are certainly many improvements that can be made.


Good stuff. Glad to hear it.

It is a shame that the implementation of road closure reporting will remain as woeful as it is though, because of some misplaced concern about how intrusive one possible optional solution might be.

In its current state it is jarringly dysfunctional.

Your counterpoints miss the fact that the option to report closures is already built in. My complaint is that its functionality is so cumbersome that it is not getting used.

As I say, an optional feature, where, if you deviate from the route, a button pops up with some of the most likely causes, with "Road Closed" being one of them, would make the feature work much better and generate more user-submitted road status info.


One thing is that your example of the multitude of closure arrows to choose from would be the exception to the rule. The vast majority of the closure reported would only have a couple arrows to choose from.

That said, one option (and truthfully the best option) would be to work with your local edits in the chat platform to report closures. This would give you a chance to report the closure when it is safe to do so and allow for a more detailed and accurate closure that will stick better than in-app closures.

Many times I have pulled off to a gas station and got on our regional Discord Chat platform and asked one of our editors to close a road that I just saw was closed. I could even tell them that it was for a crash or construction and that I would anticipate it be a couple hours or days, etc.

The biggest issue I have with the in-app closures is that I truly think that most drivers are reporting that there is a single lane closure and that is not what the closure tool is actually designed for. It is supposed to be for a complete closure that you can't travel in a single or both directions down a road. If you can travel down the road, just reduced lanes (or even a single lane that has a pilot truck to lead you) then it should not be closed in the app.

That makes it the preserve of the Waze afficionados.

To be clear, in case I've been clumsy in my explanation, what I'm after is:-

When a user has toggled the option, and they are driving along a preset route, and divert, an unobtrusive "why did you divert" button pops up - and "road closed" is a ready option.

There'd be no need for all the arrows and fiddly selection - Waze already knows the road you were about to take but now couldn't.

Also, the problem you have envisaged wouldn't actually occur - if it was just one lane closed, the user wouldn't divert, and so wouldn't get the pop-up button I'm suggesting.

I drove past the same road again today. Still closed. Still not marked up as such on Waze. Waze still trying to send its users through the cordon.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby titchy_ » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:58 am

scubbladub wrote:
jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:
Good stuff. Glad to hear it.

It is a shame that the implementation of road closure reporting will remain as woeful as it is though, because of some misplaced concern about how intrusive one possible optional solution might be.

In its current state it is jarringly dysfunctional.

Your counterpoints miss the fact that the option to report closures is already built in. My complaint is that its functionality is so cumbersome that it is not getting used.

As I say, an optional feature, where, if you deviate from the route, a button pops up with some of the most likely causes, with "Road Closed" being one of them, would make the feature work much better and generate more user-submitted road status info.


One thing is that your example of the multitude of closure arrows to choose from would be the exception to the rule. The vast majority of the closure reported would only have a couple arrows to choose from.

That said, one option (and truthfully the best option) would be to work with your local edits in the chat platform to report closures. This would give you a chance to report the closure when it is safe to do so and allow for a more detailed and accurate closure that will stick better than in-app closures.

Many times I have pulled off to a gas station and got on our regional Discord Chat platform and asked one of our editors to close a road that I just saw was closed. I could even tell them that it was for a crash or construction and that I would anticipate it be a couple hours or days, etc.

The biggest issue I have with the in-app closures is that I truly think that most drivers are reporting that there is a single lane closure and that is not what the closure tool is actually designed for. It is supposed to be for a complete closure that you can't travel in a single or both directions down a road. If you can travel down the road, just reduced lanes (or even a single lane that has a pilot truck to lead you) then it should not be closed in the app.

That makes it the preserve of the Waze afficionados.

To be clear, in case I've been clumsy in my explanation, what I'm after is:-

When a user has toggled the option, and they are driving along a preset route, and divert, an unobtrusive "why did you divert" button pops up - and "road closed" is a ready option.

There'd be no need for all the arrows and fiddly selection - Waze already knows the road you were about to take but now couldn't.

Also, the problem you have envisaged wouldn't actually occur - if it was just one lane closed, the user wouldn't divert, and so wouldn't get the pop-up button I'm suggesting.

I drove past the same road again today. Still closed. Still not marked up as such on Waze. Waze still trying to send its users through the cordon.

Are you aware how roads are made up in Waze? I'm asking because I don't know whether you're a user or an editor. Do you know that they are made up of segments? In other words, Main St could be made up of dozens of segments usually depending on the number of roads connected to it.

Let's imagine Waze gave you a route to turn left onto Main St and then the 2nd right onto Station Rd. You notice that Main St is blocked at its origin and you therefore (using your suggestion) mark the road as closed and then take an alternate route. Waze then marks the first two segments before the right turn onto Station Rd as closed. What perhaps you don't realise is that the road will be open to anyone using it beyond Station Rd.

Or alternatively, let's say you mark the road as closed and Waze closes the entirety of Main St. However, in reality only the entrance to Main St is closed due to a localised mains water leak. Yet you have gone and closed the entire road and everyone else has been unnecessarily diverted around it.

My point is that you need to know a little bit more about why a road is closed and to what extent than just driving past it.

And yes I am aware you can set closures within the app at present and no I don't particularly agree with it.

Lastly, this conversation isn't achieving anything. These forums are rarely visited by Waze staff and this is not the official place for requesting new features or improvements. You can keep getting annoyed that Waze continues to give you a route for a closed road that it is not aware of, or you can do something constructive with your time and request that this road is closed by the methods already suggested to you.

I won't be wasting any more time on this thread.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby scubbladub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:58 am

titchy_ wrote:Are you aware how roads are made up in Waze? I'm asking because I don't know whether you're a user or an editor. Do you know that they are made up of segments? In other words, Main St could be made up of dozens of segments usually depending on the number of roads connected to it.

Let's imagine Waze gave you a route to turn left onto Main St and then the 2nd right onto Station Rd. You notice that Main St is blocked at its origin and you therefore (using your suggestion) mark the road as closed and then take an alternate route. Waze then marks the first two segments before the right turn onto Station Rd as closed. What perhaps you don't realise is that the road will be open to anyone using it beyond Station Rd.

Or alternatively, let's say you mark the road as closed and Waze closes the entirety of Main St. However, in reality only the entrance to Main St is closed due to a localised mains water leak. Yet you have gone and closed the entire road and everyone else has been unnecessarily diverted around it.

My point is that you need to know a little bit more about why a road is closed and to what extent than just driving past it.

And yes I am aware you can set closures within the app at present and no I don't particularly agree with it.

Lastly, this conversation isn't achieving anything. These forums are rarely visited by Waze staff and this is not the official place for requesting new features or improvements. You can keep getting annoyed that Waze continues to give you a route for a closed road that it is not aware of, or you can do something constructive with your time and request that this road is closed by the methods already suggested to you.

I won't be wasting any more time on this thread.

It's so bizarre this inherent anger and desperation to shut down any discussion about ways in which the app can be improved.

This misguided loyalty actually harms Waze.

In terms of your points:-

Are you aware how roads are made up in Waze? I'm asking because I don't know whether you're a user or an editor. Do you know that they are made up of segments? In other words, Main St could be made up of dozens of segments usually depending on the number of roads connected to it.

Let's imagine Waze gave you a route to turn left onto Main St and then the 2nd right onto Station Rd. You notice that Main St is blocked at its origin and you therefore (using your suggestion) mark the road as closed and then take an alternate route. Waze then marks the first two segments before the right turn onto Station Rd as closed. What perhaps you don't realise is that the road will be open to anyone using it beyond Station Rd.

This is nonsensical - as you state yourself, in your example, Waze would only mark up the first segment or two as closed - it's like you haven't finished thinking your example through. In your mind, what *would* happen in that scenario?

Or alternatively, let's say you mark the road as closed and Waze closes the entirety of Main St. However, in reality only the entrance to Main St is closed due to a localised mains water leak. Yet you have gone and closed the entire road and everyone else has been unnecessarily diverted around it.

My point is that you need to know a little bit more about why a road is closed and to what extent than just driving past it.


The simplest way for Waze to handle this, and the way that is inline with everything else,... would be for it to close off the first segment, and re-divert, and then if users start reporting the second segment closed, mark that up, etc etc.

It's not complicated.

It brings closure reporting in line with other reporting.

It actually gets closures reported rather than have them causing massive disruption and yet not show up on Waze at all, day after day.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby jm6087 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:57 am

scubbladub wrote:The simplest way for Waze to handle this, and the way that is inline with everything else,... would be for it to close off the first segment, and re-divert, and then if users start reporting the second segment closed, mark that up, etc etc.


This is exactly how Waze works. Based on the trust level of an app user (based of a variety of factors), a person reports a segment closed in the app, it only closes off the first segment in one direction. If there is a second segment (or opposite direction) to close, it won't close that off unless someone reports it as closed as well.

If the trust level of the app user is not high enough, it will take multiple people reporting the same closure for the closure to stick in the app. This is to prevent people from accidentally or purposely closing roads that are not truly closed.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby scubbladub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:19 pm

jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:The simplest way for Waze to handle this, and the way that is inline with everything else,... would be for it to close off the first segment, and re-divert, and then if users start reporting the second segment closed, mark that up, etc etc.


This is exactly how Waze works. Based on the trust level of an app user (based of a variety of factors), a person reports a segment closed in the app, it only closes off the first segment in one direction. If there is a second segment (or opposite direction) to close, it won't close that off unless someone reports it as closed as well.

If the trust level of the app user is not high enough, it will take multiple people reporting the same closure for the closure to stick in the app. This is to prevent people from accidentally or purposely closing roads that are not truly closed.
Perfect.

Seems like the implementation needed is absolutely minimal then.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby jm6087 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:13 pm

scubbladub wrote:
jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:The simplest way for Waze to handle this, and the way that is inline with everything else,... would be for it to close off the first segment, and re-divert, and then if users start reporting the second segment closed, mark that up, etc etc.


This is exactly how Waze works. Based on the trust level of an app user (based of a variety of factors), a person reports a segment closed in the app, it only closes off the first segment in one direction. If there is a second segment (or opposite direction) to close, it won't close that off unless someone reports it as closed as well.

If the trust level of the app user is not high enough, it will take multiple people reporting the same closure for the closure to stick in the app. This is to prevent people from accidentally or purposely closing roads that are not truly closed.
Perfect.

Seems like the implementation needed is absolutely minimal then.


scubbladub wrote:When a user has toggled the option, and they are driving along a preset route, and divert, an unobtrusive "why did you divert" button pops up - and "road closed" is a ready option.


The issue with only offering the "closure" option if you divert is that people will and do report roads that are closed that are not part of the pre-determined route. They are sitting at a light and see that the road to the left is completely torn up and not closed in the app. They report it without ever diverting. If enough app users pass through that same light and notice it is not closed in the app and report it, it will close. No one has diverted from their original route. With your method, no one would be able to report the closure.

Another problem is that your "unobtrusive" pop up could get very obtrusive if you are driving down a highway that is under construction and has been moved far enough over that your app thinks you have left the pre-determined route even though you haven't.

Also, maybe you have come up on a closed road and detour, following the detour is close enough that the app does not realize you have actually left your pre-determined route. Now you can't report it.

Using your toggle method, if more than one of these scenarios happens in a single trip, you will need to toggle your settings in the middle of the drive which will be complained about as well. And you wouldn't know prior to the trip which "toggle" you need to have set.

There are times that the arrows can be difficult but I believe that it is the best system for the way Waze works. I just wish that the arrows were spread apart more to make it easier to choose the one you actually want.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby scubbladub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:31 pm

jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:When a user has toggled the option, and they are driving along a preset route, and divert, an unobtrusive "why did you divert" button pops up - and "road closed" is a ready option.


The issue with only offering the "closure" option if you divert is that people will and do report roads that are closed that are not part of the pre-determined route. They are sitting at a light and see that the road to the left is completely torn up and not closed in the app. They report it without ever diverting. If enough app users pass through that same light and notice it is not closed in the app and report it, it will close. No one has diverted from their original route. With your method, no one would be able to report the closure.

Another problem is that your "unobtrusive" pop up could get very obtrusive if you are driving down a highway that is under construction and has been moved far enough over that your app thinks you have left the pre-determined route even though you haven't.

Also, maybe you have come up on a closed road and detour, following the detour is close enough that the app does not realize you have actually left your pre-determined route. Now you can't report it.

Using your toggle method, if more than one of these scenarios happens in a single trip, you will need to toggle your settings in the middle of the drive which will be complained about as well. And you wouldn't know prior to the trip which "toggle" you need to have set.

There are times that the arrows can be difficult but I believe that it is the best system for the way Waze works. I just wish that the arrows were spread apart more to make it easier to choose the one you actually want.
As I've said, it's not intended as the only way to report closures, just a much easier way to automate much of the process if a road is closed on your route.

Your point about newly constructed roads is obviously of vanishingly small relevance except in developing countries, but also quickly and easily corrected.

So no problems or concerns in anything that you've written!

This is looking more and more like a goer!
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby jm6087 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:07 pm

scubbladub wrote:Your point about newly constructed roads is obviously of vanishingly small relevance except in developing countries, but also quickly and easily corrected.


I didn't say anything about "newly constructed roads" I am in the US and construction is moving roads around is non-stop.

scubbladub wrote:This is looking more and more like a goer!


If you haven't already done so, you can always make a request following the guidelines at the top of the Waze App Feature Requests forum. I can tell you that I won't be up voting it.

Personally, I don't like the idea of getting a pop up anytime I have opted not to follow the route given to me and would be annoyed with having to toggle an option in the settings menu each time I want to report a side road closed vs the road I get diverted from.
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby scubbladub » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:16 pm

jm6087 wrote:
scubbladub wrote:Your point about newly constructed roads is obviously of vanishingly small relevance except in developing countries, but also quickly and easily corrected.


I didn't say anything about "newly constructed roads" I am in the US and construction is moving roads around is non-stop.

scubbladub wrote:This is looking more and more like a goer!


If you haven't already done so, you can always make a request following the guidelines at the top of the Waze App Feature Requests forum. I can tell you that I won't be up voting it.

Personally, I don't like the idea of getting a pop up anytime I have opted not to follow the route given to me and would be annoyed with having to toggle an option in the settings menu each time I want to report a side road closed vs the road I get diverted from.
You've misunderstood another part of it.

I've never mentioned that this would disable the closure function already there. I'm not sure how you could have arrived at that conclusion.

This would be an optional additional feature, that would be as "annoying" as the alerts that already pop up... And it would mean annoying roads closures actually getting reported, rather than not at all as is the case currently.

It's such a shame that ideas so quickly get stamped down here, all based on skim reading and too-ready dismissal.

I'm so pleased no legitimate complaints have been voiced!
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Re: Closed Roads - what am I doing wrong?

Postby jm6087 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:53 pm

Since staff does not generally monitor these forums, this is designed to discuss pro's and con's. You have listed your pro's, I have listed my con's. In either case, there is nothing that says you can't suggest the idea.

As I already stated, even if this idea was implemented, I don't think it would make a difference. People can already report closures and do. As a general rule, it takes multiple reports of the same closure for it to stick in the app. It will still take multiple reports to stick in the app. The closures that do stick in the app expire based on the multiple reports so it is still possible that the the closure won't show in the app when you happen to be driving down the road. In-app closures are designed to be temporary.

With supporting documentation, if there is a long term closure that affects drivers, the best way to get it to stick in the app is to have it entered in the map editor. This way we can enter the closure for up to 6 months. We do this all the time.
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