Returning Editor and Reasoning

Moderator: delilush

Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby DeadOnTheFloor » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:42 am

Hi to the Qld editing team. I am a returned editor.

I've returned because my area started to get changes that I did not agree with.

Below I have linked an area that is an example of what I found.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... =105450172

Listing the errors:
Cooper Pde has 6 different road segments in 3 different places.
A 50km speed zone added to a PLR in the shopping centre.
Magnolia Dr been replicated and Clare St is missing.

That is with a fast look. So, I will fix what I find as I go. I just wanted to provide some substance to my claims of bad edits before I fix them.

I am also seeing instances of PLR rows (ALL) being mapped in Shopping centres, and the activity seems to be by editors who should know much better. These are recent creations and edits. I will PM those editors separately to see if there is a valid reason for their existence. (the roads, not the editors :)

I will attempt to PM all relevant active Editors before I make changes to the edits.
DeadOnTheFloor
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 am
Has thanked: 269 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby DeadOnTheFloor » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:52 am

L3 edits recent edits in the area.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... =337625739

Shift + Z = 4 blocked turns in small area.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... =316544528

Shift + Z = Ramp exits closed (Doesn't look right.) RAB blocked exits.

I will drive this area shortly to see if something major changed, but it looks like bad edits.
DeadOnTheFloor
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 am
Has thanked: 269 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby DeadOnTheFloor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:43 am

Entire suburb gated by misuse of private roads for local traffic.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... =162976647
DeadOnTheFloor
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 am
Has thanked: 269 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby ituajr » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:29 am

DeadOnTheFloor wrote:Entire suburb gated by misuse of private roads for local traffic.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... =162976647

That looks to me like an ingenious way of implementing the "Local Traffic Only" restriction.

Routes into the area work:
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Routes out of the area work:
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6

Routes through the area are avoided, even when the alternative is much longer:
Example 7
Example 8

Why do you think this is "misuse" - what problems are you expecting?
[ img ] [ img ]
Country Manager for Australia.
70000 km driven with Waze, 2027 km paved, 7200 Update Requests resolved.
ituajr
Coordinators
Coordinators
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 330 times
Been thanked: 1669 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby GarvinGray » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:20 am

I do not agree with the use of the private roads solution for 'local traffic only' sign restriction, but I do not understand your routes and examples that you have given either, so can not offer any further feedback on your response ituajr.
As waze editors, our role is to map based on what is legal. It is the job of councils and governments to determine whether or not a turn or other similar 'risky' situations should be permitted based on risk assessments performed by people much more qualified than us to do so.

This point is not up for discussion, never has been and never will be.
GarvinGray
Area Manager
Area Manager
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:00 am
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby ituajr » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:21 am

GarvinGray wrote:I do not agree with the use of the private roads solution for 'local traffic only' sign restriction, but I do not understand your routes and examples that you have given either, so can not offer any further feedback on your response ituajr.

You may not have zoomed in enough to see the private sections - they're very short. Here, for example, is the one on Laurier St, relevant to my examples 7 and 8.
[ img ] [ img ]
Country Manager for Australia.
70000 km driven with Waze, 2027 km paved, 7200 Update Requests resolved.
ituajr
Coordinators
Coordinators
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 330 times
Been thanked: 1669 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby GarvinGray » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:14 am

A little bit of background history to this thread.

Kaiglynn and I previously exchanged private messages back and forth a couple of weeks or so ago over the use of the 'short' private roads to connect 'street' to 'street' after he contacted Transport and Main Roads and was advised that drivers should be advised to avoid local traffic only zones.

I replied that those areas are zoned are for information only are used to inform drivers that entering them will mean that a driver will usually be entering a 40km speed limit, speed humps, chicanes and other local traffic only devices to slow traffic down and deter rat runners.

I also said those signs are no legal enforcement and police can not issue tickets for drivers going down them, even if it is for a short cut.

And also that waze's role is to provide the fastest route and to route what is legal.

Kai responded that he was not going to be changing the work he has done and believed his editing to be correct. I decided to wait to see if the discussion came up again via other editors. It has. This is that discussion.

The use of private roads is meant for private estates and the like and is meant to stop routing down it. Basically to stop drivers being routed to a dead end into a townhouse complex.

Private roads are not meant to be used to link street to street here where the route is legal and is potentially the fastest route. As we say on many other routes that waze offers, waze gives the fastest route based on previous speed data and conditions at the time, it is up to the driver to decide whether to follow the waze recommended route, or not.

The situation is the same here. It is not up to us as editors to manipulate the map to avoid the fastest, legal route. To do so introduces personal opinion into a matter that is supposed to be crystal clear. We map what is LEGAL, nothing more.


ituajr wrote:
GarvinGray wrote:I do not agree with the use of the private roads solution for 'local traffic only' sign restriction, but I do not understand your routes and examples that you have given either, so can not offer any further feedback on your response ituajr.

You may not have zoomed in enough to see the private sections - they're very short. Here, for example, is the one on Laurier St, relevant to my examples 7 and 8.
As waze editors, our role is to map based on what is legal. It is the job of councils and governments to determine whether or not a turn or other similar 'risky' situations should be permitted based on risk assessments performed by people much more qualified than us to do so.

This point is not up for discussion, never has been and never will be.
GarvinGray
Area Manager
Area Manager
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:00 am
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby ituajr » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:11 am

GarvinGray wrote: [...]

You've made a number of dogmatic statements without providing any verifiable facts to justify them. Ideally, you would provide a URL and quote the relevant piece of text. Here, let me show you how it's done
Kaiglynn and I previously exchanged private messages back and forth a couple of weeks or so ago over the use of the 'short' private roads to connect 'street' to 'street' after he contacted Transport and Main Roads and was advised that drivers should be advised to avoid local traffic only zones.
I also said those signs are no legal enforcement and police can not issue tickets for drivers going down them, even if it is for a short cut.

Australian Road Rules "97—Road access signs: (1) A driver must not drive on a length of road to which a road access sign applies if information on or with the sign indicates that the driver or the driver's vehicle is not permitted beyond the sign." (I quote the SA copy of the legislation because the Queensland TMR website has a rabbit warren of pages labeled "Road Rules" and I was unable to find the actual Road Rules.)

Further, Queensland Traffic Instructions Signs: "Local traffic only signs: A local traffic sign is for traffic accessing the local area. Through traffic should continue using the main roads."

If you're going to claim that these signs have no legal significance, you need to provide some legally-supportable evidence to justify your position.
Private roads are not meant to be used to link street to street here where the route is legal and is potentially the fastest route.

And yet: Private Road (Australia): "A road not intended for use by through traffic. Waze will only use a private road segment when routing to a destination on that private road or an attached private or parking lot road. Do not mark a public dead-end street as a private road."

And Road Types: " Private Road  may be used for a public street that has a legally enforceable sign for local traffic only."

I would point out that the last link also says "However, using private roads in some of these situations may require more complex mapping as covered in the article Private Installations. Be sure to read through that article before setting a whole neighborhood to all private roads." That link has complex rules for using private/parking lot roads to control access to but not through certain areas. It suggests locking the special private roads to prevent inexperienced editors from "fixing" them. Let's hope that is not necessary here.
[ img ] [ img ]
Country Manager for Australia.
70000 km driven with Waze, 2027 km paved, 7200 Update Requests resolved.
ituajr
Coordinators
Coordinators
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 330 times
Been thanked: 1669 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby DeadOnTheFloor » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:18 am

I can verify Local Road use is only suggestive, as I have in the past with TMR.

I know we are not Google, but we are, and Google Maps do not observe these 'imposed route restrictions".

Probably for the first time in a long time, GG has my full support on this matter.

Kai is gone.

These are not PRIVATE ROADS.

[ img ]

Also, it would be fruitful to think

1) This is a key transport area, that over the years, all the QLD editors seemed to miss the need to implement these restrictions? I don't think so personally.

2) This was an unnecessary edit, performed by an editor with questionable skills in relation to interpreting the Best Practice and Local editing practices.
DeadOnTheFloor
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 am
Has thanked: 269 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Returning Editor and Reasoning

Postby ituajr » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:23 am

DeadOnTheFloor wrote:These are not PRIVATE ROADS.

I repeat, this time with emphasis: IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE DOGMATIC STATEMENTS, BACK THEM UP WITH FACTS. You're making one of the basic editing mistakes - Assuming road types are intuitively obvious: "Wrong: When deciding what type to apply to a road segment, I can rely on my intuitive conception of highways, ramps, streets, walking trails, et cetera." If you're going to assert that the private road type can't be used for this purpose, produce your source.

You then quote some nameless person from TMR, who said "Compliance with warning signs is always recommended", and you choose to believe this means "ignore the sign". How well do you think that would work in court?

Also, it would be fruitful to think
1) This is a key transport area, that over the years, all the QLD editors seemed to miss the need to implement these restrictions? I don't think so personally.

More likely they couldn't find a practical way to do it. I certainly didn't know there was a way, and I congratulate that editor for finding a way and implementing it in accordance with the Wiki.

2) This was an unnecessary edit, performed by an editor with questionable skills in relation to interpreting the Best Practice and Local editing practices.

And yet somehow that editor "with questionable skills" managed to do it in the documented Best Practice way. What does that say about his skills relative to others?

I don't understand why some people are so keen to avoid arranging the map so that Waze does its routing in accordance with the clearly sign-posted intentions of the authorities. What is your objection to this? is it just a philosophical objection to the use of private roads? Would it be acceptable if they were parking lot roads?
[ img ] [ img ]
Country Manager for Australia.
70000 km driven with Waze, 2027 km paved, 7200 Update Requests resolved.
ituajr
Coordinators
Coordinators
 
Posts: 3097
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 330 times
Been thanked: 1669 times

Next

Return to Queensland

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users