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Advice please - persistant URs at Banstead Cross

Post by woodvale
Appreciate any advice from the more experienced among you.

There have been regular URs raised at this junction when southbound drivers on the A217 (S) wanting to turn right on the A2122 westbound have been directed to turn left into Winkworth Rd, go round the roundabout at the top of Bolter's Ln, then go through the junction westbound. I introduced the slip road (segment 184361143) in the hope that it would get a more accurate average speed than the main southbound lanes and encourage Waze to route drivers along there and through the right turn into Fir Tree Rd.

So far, that seems to have worked, as no URs have been raised there for a month or so since I introduced the slip, whereas they were regular - every one or two weeks - before, but it has now happened again.

Possibilities that have occurred to me:
- simplify the junction to the basics - one segment for the A217 (S) rather than main and two slips
- leave in the long slip for traffic turning right into Fir Tree Rd, but remove the slip onto Winkworth Rd
- more extreme by far - extend that slip onto Winkworth Rd effectively by duplicating Winkworth Rd to beyond the roundabout, with a junction allowing exit onto Bolter's Ln as well, but preventing use of the roundabout
- just put up with it, close URs when they occur, and put it down to transient traffic conditions.

The perfectionist in me doesn't sit well with the last two options, and I'm tempted to go for #1, which would also suggest removing all the slips in their entirety leaving a simple single/dual carriageway bow-tie cross-roads with no turn restrictions.

Does anybody have any other suggestions that I've not thought of?

Thanks
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Post by dknight212
I'd remove the right turn lane on A217 (S) or at least shorten it a hell of a lot. I see little benefit for it, drivers should get plenty of time to see the turn right coming up so should be in the right hand lane. With it so long once Waze thinks you're past the exit Waze will then try the roundabout even though the turn is still possible. I don't like the pinch point either but that's unlikely to show on the client.
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Post by dknight212
whinge whinge, unlocked now
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Post by dknight212
You can please some of the drivers all of the time and all of the drivers some of the time, but...

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Post by dknight212
Just a thought on this one. If there is a difference in the signalling for left and right here, is it conceivable that at some times it actually would be quicker to go round the roundabout and cross the junction that way rather than wait in the right hand turn queue?

Even if not for this junction there must be some where a similar detour could work at some times of the day. But when Waze suggests it and the "proper" route is not jammed it looks odd to the user. Unless and until Waze has extremely timely data this will always be a possible problem. Just jabbering on here, no need to listen ...
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Post by dknight212
I'd marked solved.

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Post by woodvale
dknight212 wrote:I'd remove the right turn lane on A217 (S) or at least shorten it a hell of a lot. I see little benefit for it, drivers should get plenty of time to see the turn right coming up so should be in the right hand lane. With it so long once Waze thinks you're past the exit Waze will then try the roundabout even though the turn is still possible.
In the morning peak, if you're not in the r-h lane well before the railway bridge, you've no chance. I've move the junction to be just south of the railway bridge, where it is in reality. The route via the slip is now 127m, vs 390m via the roundabout. Not that it'll make any difference if Waze thinks you're on the A217 rather than the slip, it'll still reroute via the roundabout. Perhaps the real answer is to do away will ALL of the slip roads.
dknight212 wrote:I don't like the pinch point either but that's unlikely to show on the client.
I agree that a 7m gap is less than needed to avoid U-turns - I've just checked the wiki and it says it needs to be less than 15m - when I rebuilt the junction last, I thought it was 10. I've widened it out to 12m. I can't play with the positioning of the north-bound carriageway - a certain local CM made some, no doubt, very necessary amendments, and now it's locked at L5 ;)
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Post by woodvale
Fiddled with, and locked again, thanks!

If there's another UR in the next week, I'm going to kill off all the slip roads and see if that works.
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Post by woodvale
dknight212 wrote:If there is a difference in the signalling for left and right here, is it conceivable that at some times it actually would be quicker to go round the roundabout and cross the junction that way rather than wait in the right hand turn queue?

Even if not for this junction there must be some where a similar detour could work at some times of the day. But when Waze suggests it and the "proper" route is not jammed it looks odd to the user. Unless and until Waze has extremely timely data this will always be a possible problem. Just jabbering on here, no need to listen ...
Of course I'll listen! I think this is similar to the situation where Waze advises the driver to leave a dual carriageway, go through the junction and then back on again. I know from experience that this often works on the M25 at J11 for traffic joining from the M3. In the evening peak, it's usually a lot quicker to stay in the left hand lane and exit at J11, and then rejoin after going across the roundabout. I also never stay westbound on the Croydon Flyover in the mornings, but take the slip down to the roundabout and then back up to rejoin the A232 by St Andrews School (I may be dropping off my boy if he wants to get to school early, but that's neither here nor there - it's much quicker than staying on the flyover!).

It's a few weeks since I've been through here, but I think the sequence is:
- A217 N&S, which allows left-turn into Winkworth Rd or Fir Tree Rd for S-/N-bound traffic respectively
- A217 N&S turning right
- A2122 Eastbound straight and turning left/right
- A2122 Westbound straight and turning left/right
and repeat.

So I suppose it is possible that it is genuinely quicker to come south down the 217, left into Winkworth Rd, round the roundabout and back across the junction before stuff queuing to turn right gets there. If that is the case, should the UR be solved or unresolved? I guess the former as there's nothing more that can be done to the map, but I don't like marking something solved when there is no resolution other than saying "it's like that at certain times of the day"!
woodvale
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