Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

[ img ]

Moderators: delilush, Australia Managers

Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby mtbwill » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:36 am

Posting this to bring out of Updates/Unlocks forum and try to get to a documented position on dual Red Light + Speed Camera locations.

Problem:
Red Light Speed Cameras in NSW perform two functions - capture vehicles over the speed limit at all times, and capture vehicles crossing the stop line after the traffic lights have turned red. (Source: RMS). There are 2 poles but it is 1 camera device.
There have been reports from users and editors that the Waze app is not giving the appropriate warnings (speed warning, RLC warning).

Desired outcomes:
  1. Documented desired behaviour for these sites
  2. Implemented and tested solution in WME
  3. Wiki article creation/addition for future editor reference

Observations
  • Red light camera configured with a speed: Visual warning in client if under speed limit, spoken warning if over speed limit. No warning about red light camera.
  • Red light camera configured with an empty speed: audible warning on approach
  • Red light camera configured with '0' speed: ??
  • Speed camera configured: Visual warning in client if under speed limit, spoken warning if over speed limit
  • 2 cameras configured (Speed camera first, RLC on stop line, 40m separation): Visual warning in client if under speed limit, spoken warning if over speed limit, no warning about red light camera.
  • 2 cameras configured (Speed camera first, RLC on stop line, 52m separation): Visual warning in client if under speed limit, spoken warning if over speed limit, no warning about red light camera.

Notes
  • Test site: Permalink
  • My idea of ideal behaviour: Red light camera - always get a warning. Speed camera - visual warning if under speed limit, spoken warning if over speed limit.
The Wiki says this on Camera Speed:
Waze Wiki wrote:The Max Speed for a camera should be set to the speed limit for the road which the speed camera is monitoring.

The Max Speed can also be set for a Red Light Camera if it monitors for speed limit violations as well as red light violation. Leave the max speed set to blank if speed is not monitored. Zero is not blank; a max speed of zero will cause the camera to always generate an audible alert as discussed below.

While a Red Light Camera will always give an alert in the client as a driver approaches, a Speed Camera will always show a pop-up alert, but will only generate an audible alert if the driver is exceeding the set Speed Limit as they approach the camera.
L2 editor, Newcastle local
mtbwill
Map Raider
Map Raider
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:56 am
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Has thanked: 161 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby jberkers42 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:09 am

For what it's worth, Victoria's systems operate the same, however, I cannot find a similar matching statement to yours. Not all Red Light cameras are dual-purpose, some are RLC only.

So what you are saying is that in the App currently, there is no 'practical' way to achieve your desired outcome. With the examples you have provided, there is no warning about red light camera if a speed camera is in the vicinity (at least within 52m).

The alert behaviour is similar for multiple hazards within a short distance, where Waze only alerts you to the first of these as you approach. I have seen occasions where there are several hundred meters between hazards, but have only been alerted to the first.

With this in mind, it could be that we need to place the speed camera alert as far away as several hundred meters before you get an alert for both. At that point you will get reports to indicate that there is no speed camera at that location.

It sounds to me like the App needs to have support added to achieve your desired outcome. Have a sufficient number of users requested this functionality? I know that we could potentially be waiting a while as we have no direct control over App feature development.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Regards,

JohnB
[ img ]
25,000 Km Driven with Waze
33 Km Paved
jberkers42
 
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:28 am
Location: Outer Eastern Suburbs, Melbourne
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 106 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby ituajr » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:52 am

jberkers42 wrote:It sounds to me like the App needs to have support added to achieve your desired outcome. Have a sufficient number of users requested this functionality? I know that we could potentially be waiting a while as we have no direct control over App feature development.

To quote a CM in the UK: (Ref: forum posting)
iainhouse wrote:[...] in the UK, we set the speed of all red-light cameras to zero, even if they are capable of measuring speed as well. At least that ensures users will always be alerted.
It's not ideal - but I've been asking Waze staff directly to improve this behaviour for 4 years now. I've given up hope it will ever happen. :((


Let's not hold our breath waiting for an app fix.

Surely this is a world-wide problem, and we can't be the first people to think of the dual-camera method. I don't recall seeing any discussion elsewhere. Has everyone else just given up and accepted the RLC-only solution?
[ img ] [ img ] [ img ]
Country Coordinator for Australia.
74000 km driven with Waze, 2034 km paved,
8200 Update Requests resolved, 14100 map problems closed.
ituajr
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:23 pm
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 391 times
Been thanked: 2046 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby GarvinGray » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:15 pm

Slightly off topic, but there is a consistent theme here. It seems that asking the waze staff for anything is just a hopeless exercise and a waste of time.
As waze editors, our role is to map based on what is legal. It is the job of councils and governments to determine whether or not a turn or other similar 'risky' situations should be permitted based on risk assessments performed by people much more qualified than us to do so.

This point is not up for discussion, never has been and never will be.
GarvinGray
State Manager
State Manager
 
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:00 am
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby GBSpeedy1305 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:17 pm

Just to add even more mystery.

The last few times I have been travelling from Cooyong St West towards the Gungahlin Drive Freeway. I have been getting a RLC message at ~460m out.

Most of the ACT Dual operation Cameras have been set with as RLC with a speed of 0 so you get a warning on approach. All ACT RLC measure speed too, so it could be assumed knowledge. no help if you are visiting.
GBSpeedy1305
State Manager
State Manager
 
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:58 am
Has thanked: 407 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby B_Carp » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:46 pm

The thing that bothers me the most about the red light camera function in Waze is that there is no way of turning off audible alerts for them. There is an app setting for turning off audible alerts for speed cameras, but not red light cameras. If it were up to me, I’d set all the red light camera speeds to 1000km/hr just so I didn’t have to listen to them! (No no, I haven’t been doing that.)
B_Carp
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:43 am
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby mtbwill » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 pm

Achieving consensus will be hard, getting WazeHQ to do something nigh impossible ... I see your point GarvinGray but lets do what's within our power ...

So, another interesting one. This RLC in Newcastle West did not give me a warning at all the other day! I was under the speed limit configured so I understand no audible, but there was no visual either. I wonder if it was because of its position in relation to the AGC which could actually be removed? I'll post separately to clean that up

Per the UK suggestion above, I'm going to update my test site to remove the speed camera, and set the RLC to 0km/hr and see what happens. I'll report back with my findings once the map updates and i've tested.
L2 editor, Newcastle local
mtbwill
Map Raider
Map Raider
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:56 am
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Has thanked: 161 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby mtbwill » Sun May 06, 2018 11:44 am

I've done some drives through this site and am now always getting a "Red light camera ahead" verbal warning on the leadup.
I'm going to do a drive by of the camera I mentioned in Newcastle West during this week just to gather a few more data points and then I think we can decide *something*.
Part of me is thinking the Speed warning is more "important" - because running a red light is just stupid.

jberkers42 wrote:For what it's worth, Victoria's systems operate the same, however, I cannot find a similar matching statement to yours.

We have the same - some Red Light Cameras, some Red Light Speed Cameras. Sorry if I implied that all the RLC's detect speed!
L2 editor, Newcastle local
mtbwill
Map Raider
Map Raider
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:56 am
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Has thanked: 161 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby Jamie_Mc » Tue May 08, 2018 12:02 pm

ituajr wrote:Surely this is a world-wide problem, and we can't be the first people to think of the dual-camera method. I don't recall seeing any discussion elsewhere. Has everyone else just given up and accepted the RLC-only solution?

I did some digging through the Wazeopedia pages of other countries and found little consensus on the issue; and nothing about using dual cameras.

Perhaps this is a world first?


Interestingly, India's section on setting camera speed is remarkably similar to the UK's page (images and all), but the footnotes on the two pages don't agree.

UK: "...the speed for all red light cameras should be set to zero so that you are always warned of their presence."

India: "...you should set the speed limit for red light cameras as you would for speed cameras."

Most other countries' wikis seem to agree with India (e.g. USA, Benelux). The Global wiki's Cameras page hasn't been created yet...
Jamie_Mc
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:42 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Dual Red Light + Speed Camera

Postby Traveling_Gav » Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 am

jberkers42 wrote:The alert behaviour is similar for multiple hazards within a short distance, where Waze only alerts you to the first of these as you approach. I have seen occasions where there are several hundred meters between hazards, but have only been alerted to the first.


I think this might be the issue we have in Brisbane here. https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=row&lo ... 786&zoom=6

There is around 500m between the two red light cameras but you never get anything from the one at Junction Rd? :-(
[ img ][ img ]
AM: QLD and Central NSW
Traveling_Gav
State Manager
State Manager
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:01 am
Has thanked: 377 times
Been thanked: 329 times

Next

Return to Australia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users