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Post by spookyx
From my tests and experience, if a segment is 15 meters it will not alway do a U turn.
If, however is 16, than you will get a U turn on 100% of cases.
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Post by taco909
I just set up another test location here:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... ts=4806330

I route through here nearly every morning. Traffic is typically backed up on the metered ramp. Sometimes Waze pulls me off at Arrow, sometimes Auto Center, and sometimes it doesn't detour (THEN it gets stupid, I'll get off at Auto Center, and it tries to get me back on SB-57, then off and back on NB-57 at Arrow and through the interchange I just tried to avoid.)
Other times it will try to get me to turn left on Lone Hill to go down to Arrow and catch WB-210 at Sunflower or Grand.... But once I make the right onto Lone Hill, it will always direct me to turn left to WB-210, and when I (intentionally) miss that ramp, it will send me through a U-turn at this intersection.

So perfectly 90 degrees, 13m. Hopefully Friday it won't direct me through the U-turn.

When I was getting the U-turn, the segment was 14m, but only the top 4 angles were 90 degrees.
The bottom 4 angles were off by 5 or 6 degrees as there were no straight segments from the split in Lonehill.
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Post by taco909
PesachZ wrote:
Taco909 wrote:I just set up another test location here:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... ts=4806330

I route through here nearly every morning. Traffic is typically backed up on the metered ramp. Sometimes Waze pulls me off at Arrow, sometimes Auto Center, and sometimes it doesn't detour (THEN it gets stupid, I'll get off at Auto Center, and it tries to get me back on SB-57, then off and back on NB-57 at Arrow and through the interchange I just tried to avoid.)
Other times it will try to get me to turn left on Lone Hill to go down to Arrow and catch WB-210 at Sunflower or Grand.... But once I make the right onto Lone Hill, it will always direct me to turn left to WB-210, and when I (intentionally) miss that ramp, it will send me through a U-turn at this intersection.

So perfectly 90 degrees, 13m. Hopefully Friday it won't direct me through the U-turn.

When I was getting the U-turn, the segment was 14m, but only the top 4 angles were 90 degrees.
The bottom 4 angles were off by 5 or 6 degrees as there were no straight segments from the split in Lonehill.
This looks like it should work, I'll be waiting to hear your results. Side note, is that U-turn actually illegal?
It is legal... Doing this just for the test. If I get routed through the U Friday morning, I'll report here and restore the original geometry on the south approach.

Logic being Waze only routes this U if the previous turn is missed... and the drivers are going to make the U whether Waze tells them to or not.
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Post by taco909
Interesting.... Apparently the 90 degree angle issue and whether the turn is allowed or not is direction-dependent.

As I said, the original angles were very close to 90 on the top of the junctions (88/92 I think.)
I am unable to get Waze to route a (legal) U-turn from SB to NB at either of the two intersections, Kenoma or Petunia. Kenoma, the center segment is named.
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Post by taco909
PesachZ wrote:
Taco909 wrote:Interesting.... Apparently the 90 degree angle issue and whether the turn is allowed or not is direction-dependent.

As I said, the original angles were very close to 90 on the top of the junctions (88/92 I think.)
I am unable to get Waze to route a (legal) U-turn from SB to NB at either of the two intersections, Kenoma or Petunia. Kenoma, the center segment is named.
Yes it only looks at the turn angles for the turns you are making. This was discussed and tested in a few other threads as well. I have yet to have one fail, and I've done a bunch.
Confirmed this morning, it tried to take me through the neighborhood to get turned around.

So, for this and the other approaches including the intersection to the north (I'll verify that U-turns are legal) it would likely be best to extend the center links to 16m, BUT... I'm curious on the angle needed on the 9m<?<15m segment, so for the one I use, I think I'm going to start by bumping the angles until I find the limit. I'm going to try 85/95 degrees and see what I get Monday morning.
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Post by taco909
I was planning on sticking to >10
Below 10m, if the angle is pulled much less than 90 (without using doglegs) you're pulling the sides in pretty close... to the point that maybe it shouldn't even be split, or perhaps a bowtie would be a better option.

Honestly, this stretch of Lone Hill should probably not have been split, as it is unsplit through the interchange and above Rt-66, plus there are no homes and only one driveway that would be blocked by the median.. and turn restrictions would handle that.

That said, from a couple of the URs I've seen in the area, it appears that u-turns are extremely common (even though they have never been enabled except the most southern one.) The only places a U is not legal is at the northern driveway (break in the median) just below 66 and NB at 66.

I'll talk to Ottonomy and see how he feels about splitting the area at the interchange. U turns are legal NB at the WB ramp, but not legal SB at the EB ramp. That would be a perfect location for a 13m 90 degree H to avoid an at-grade left and simplify the junction (likewise NB at Foothill, with SB pinched away from 90 to allow it.)
I suspect that when the road was split, it was done without conferring with the CM since he would have been needed to unlock the ramps.
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Post by taco909
Okay, I did not attempt to split that short section at the freeway.

I did run all the way down to where LoneHill goes unsplit again and made a bunch of changes correcting let and u-turn setups. Many intersections were simply set up incorrectly, others appeared correct but were right on the edge for not instructing, and a couple (3 or 4 actually) needed either at-grade connectors or bowties due to opposing directions having different u-turn restrictions... I opted for at-grade connectors.

Also found a segment where a frontage road was built back in '01 or '02... about the same time Costco went in, I worked on the intersections... and it was never mapped, the homes still mapped to the main road.
I added the bypass and bumped the addresses to it.

So at this point, only Petunia is subject to experiment. The rest of the intersections are set solidly within the guidelines for permit/prohibit U-turn. The only one that is unusual is the junction with Rt66. U-turn is allowed one direction, not the other, so I doglegged the angles to 73 degrees on the approach that may make a u-turn.

I looked at an 85 degree angle, which was where I planned to start, but it looks so close I don't know if it will impact it. I have a sneaky suspicion that, like roundabout angles, 15 might be the magic number, which would require the turn to be outside of the 75-105 degree cone. I split the difference and went to 80.

We'll see in a day or two!
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Post by taco909
80 degrees at 13m does not route a u-turn.
Trying 75. First left will be 75 and the 2nd left will be 105.

I did have an interesting one a few blocks down.
I didn't want to run the link all the way to 16 due to a closely spaced junction to the south, so I pulled it to 71 degrees. Strange was that it seemed to route properly in WME using the Route Checker script, but I could not get Livemap to route the U-turn. Livemap was current, as other changes I had made in the area showed.

I just pulled it to 16m and straightened the segment... I don't want to experiment on more than one intersection at a time.
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Post by taco909
13m at 75/105 did not route the U-turn this morning.
I'm going to hold to 75, but reverse one side so it is a 75-75 on one side and 105-105 the other... curious if it's not the 90 degree approaches but rather the entire turn being 180.
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Post by taco909
PesachZ wrote:I believe there may an error in the testing here. This median segmentwas 16m and allowed u-turns, after making it 14m it stopped allowing u-turns. I did notice with more testing that segment length was not the only criteria to inflict the penalty. After searching the forums, I found another editor mention that in order for the penalty to be implemented, you need a) a segment <15m AND a Turn Angle very close to (almost exactly) 90°.

It may be what's been causing the inconsistent results in testing here. The segment above is now 10m and still doesn't allow u-turns.

I believe the wiki was correct in saying "less than 15m", but needs to be updated as discussed elsewhere with the second criteria.

Unfortunately I never did find the exact angle threshold at which it stops working, (my testing there stagnated), but please read the whole thread, and you'll see lots of details and images.
Very, very strange.

Two intersections, both with the crossover named and 13m. The one at 94 entry 92 exit routes a U-Turn.
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... 41,4807999
The one at 83 entry 96 exit will not
https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lo ... 7,62178542
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