Southwest lock standard?

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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby irowiki » Wed May 21, 2014 3:32 pm

vectorspace wrote:I also ask the question, "Why would we need a southwest locking guidance?" Irowiki, why do you think we need one? I can think of non-technical answers that focus more on the social aspects of Waze... for instance, that it would be harder to do this country-wide, so let's just work to advance our region.


vectorspace wrote:
ply8808 wrote:Not an attempt to answer for irowiki, ...


Nuts, I should have coordinated with my fellow Mentor about this. As his Mentor, I was trying to put irowiki on the spot (a little bit) to defend his position publicly! :)



ply8808 wrote:Bummer :oops:
But I do not feel we should let your mentee completely off the hook as he did start the topic, and I for one am very interested in his response :)


vectorspace wrote:
ply8808 wrote:Bummer :oops:
But I do not feel we should let your mentee completely off the hook as he did start the topic, and I for one am very interested in his response :)


No problem! Defense of editors against tyrannical champs is a virtue! I look forward to his response too!



Oops. This thread fell off my subscribe list for some reason.

I hope I'm not disappointing anyone, but it's actually not that complex, in reading the "nationwide lock standard" thread, I noticed a few people were doing locking standards by region (most notably New England) so I thought I'd jump start the discussion :lol:

I do not feel it is as big as an issue as figuring out FC stuff, for example.
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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby SkiDooGuy » Thu May 22, 2014 2:42 pm

One thing I noticed while playing with the beta editor was the amount of level 6 locks in SD and surrounding cities. I know it has been talked about making the highest the traffic lock will go is 5. But even then, is it really necessary? If over 70% of primary street and above are TL at 5 then editing is going to get really difficult.


I know that it has been talked about AM immunity, but that involve Waze reprogramming the AM or traffic lock system. And we know how fast they are at that... I know I edit over 3/4 of SD from drives, because it takes a long time to get all that area approved.

IMO I think a standardized lock system on our end is the best option. Keeps the maps under editor control instead of Waze and will lesson our headaches. But it's something that needs to be pushed forward and presented to Waze. That way they know that we are for sure planning and not just talking.

-ski




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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby vectorspace » Sun May 25, 2014 5:15 pm

skidoomxz01 wrote:One thing I noticed while playing with the beta editor was the amount of level 6 locks in SD and surrounding cities. I know it has been talked about making the highest the traffic lock will go is 5. But even then, is it really necessary? If over 70% of primary street and above are TL at 5 then editing is going to get really difficult. ...

-ski


Ski,

There should be no Rank-6 locks unless there is some extraordinary issue going on, like vandalism, a rogue Rank-5 CM editors, construction or other differences between the areal images and real roads, etc. Rank-6 locks should typically also be temporary whenever possible, even though temporary may be months.

Rank-5 locks were generally agreed upon to be important for freeways and their ramps. There are unlock forums and any higher-rank editor that is willing to help can temporarily unlock these for your needs.

I have seen whole towns locked at Rank-5 for an unknown reason... we found out the Champ that did it and heard that there was a vandalism issue in the area, and one of their solutions was to lock down the area. Because everyone's busy, they forgot about it and didn't get back to it. We just recently mass-unlocked the town and applied some lower-level locks to roads per other parts of this discussion. So... what you're seeing may have been a legacy lock that was forgotten about by whoever did it.

I am concerned that you have seen Rank-6 locks in SD that you're worried about. Who did them, how old are those locks (best guess from last edit date)? Have you written to the person who is Rank-6 and asked? If you'd like me to take a look, send me a PM and I will give you a hand figuring it out.
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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby SkiDooGuy » Sun May 25, 2014 5:17 pm

vectorspace wrote:
skidoomxz01 wrote:One thing I noticed while playing with the beta editor was the amount of level 6 locks in SD and surrounding cities. I know it has been talked about making the highest the traffic lock will go is 5. But even then, is it really necessary? If over 70% of primary street and above are TL at 5 then editing is going to get really difficult. ...

-ski


Ski,

There should be no Rank-6 locks unless there is some extraordinary issue going on, like vandalism, a rogue Rank-5 CM editors, construction or other differences between the areal images and real roads, etc. Rank-6 locks should typically also be temporary whenever possible, even though temporary may be months.

Rank-5 locks were generally agreed upon to be important for freeways and their ramps. There are unlock forums and any higher-rank editor that is willing to help can temporarily unlock these for your needs.

I have seen whole towns locked at Rank-5 for an unknown reason... we found out the Champ that did it and heard that there was a vandalism issue in the area, and one of their solutions was to lock down the area. Because everyone's busy, they forgot about it and didn't get back to it. We just recently mass-unlocked the town and applied some lower-level locks to roads per other parts of this discussion. So... what you're seeing may have been a legacy lock that was forgotten about by whoever did it.

I am concerned that you have seen Rank-6 locks in SD that you're worried about. Who did them, how old are those locks (best guess from last edit date)? Have you written to the person who is Rank-6 and asked? If you'd like me to take a look, send me a PM and I will give you a hand figuring it out.


My apologies. I meant traffic locks. I was playing in the practice mode on the beta editor and noticed all the 6 traffic locks.

I'm sure the max lock would be lowered upon the system being implemented here like in France and Canada. Was just making note of it.

My bad at not clarifying.



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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby vectorspace » Sun May 25, 2014 5:34 pm

No problem... I have been busy with graduations and am not back up to speed on the forum. I just read and commented on the traffic locks here:

https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2&start=30
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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby SuperDave1426 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:11 pm

Coming in a bit late in this discussion. While I think that having some kind of standard might be a good thing, this:
irowiki wrote:In NM our strategy is evolving, but we're looking at something to the tune of:

FW/Ramps: 5
MH: 4
mH: 3
PS: 2

Is WAY too high, IMO. How on Earth are new editors going to every be able to get in any actual editing and get enough points to the level needed to edit something else?

This is supposed to be a community map editing project. If you make it too frustrating for new editors to actually accomplish anything, they're just going to get discouraged and wander away.

It's bad enough that this new FC crap for determining street types in the map causes a two-lane local road to suddenly be classified as "Major Highway" just because a (possibly outdated) document found online lists it as being a "Primary Artery" (even though no driver in their right mind would consider the road that they're driving on to be a "Major Highway"). But now you want to lock the roads to various levels based on this somewhat arbitrary policy, making it harder for new people to step up and start helping out?

No, thank you.

Even before this whole FC thing came about, I've locked certain actually important roads within the city at Rank 2 because the satellite imagery just made them too tempting a target for a completely new editor to decide to split. So I took proactive action after clearing the idea first with Jemay and did that. It keeps a completely rank-amateur editor from being over-enthusiastic, :-) while still allowing newer editors who have hopefully learned some things by the time they got to Rank 2 to be able to make needed changes without having to pester me, another AM, or the RC.

To me, that is a reasonable use of the editor lock. Simply locking things (especially as high as suggested in the example above) based on a street type set within Waze is not.
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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby Daknife » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:06 pm

While not on board with most of Superdave's complaints I agree that most of those locks are too high, FW yes 5 absolutely. Having found sections of metro freeways changed to street type before (luckily I caught it before it went live as that was back when we could go a couple weeks to a month between tile updates) Freeways must be locked at a high level. But nothing else should be auto locked above 3 and I'd keep it to MH only, mh and ps should not be autolocked. Let AM's and CM's selectively lock those when and where problem editing occurs.

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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby ply8808 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:23 pm

daknife wrote:While not on board with most of Superdave's complaints I agree that most of those locks are too high, FW yes 5 absolutely. Having found sections of metro freeways changed to street type before (luckily I caught it before it went live as that was back when we could go a couple weeks to a month between tile updates) Freeways must be locked at a high level. But nothing else should be auto locked above 3 and I'd keep it to MH only, mh and ps should not be autolocked. Let AM's and CM's selectively lock those when and where problem editing occurs.

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I agree with this with the thought on reconsidering the mH locked to a 2, with the FC implementation it would be easy for an rank 1 to mistake these as a street (not highway) and do some unnecessary changes that will need to be redone. (Rank 1 - "That is not a highway and I can fix it")
But any rank 2 should have enough knowledge to have read the wiki in some form or fashion on the new requirements for FCs.
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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby SkiDooGuy » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:50 pm

You gents are missing a large part of this.

These locks are only a suggestion. A general standard that can be used to base decisions on.

Obviously your not going to lock down every road just because a forum or wiki said so. A large part of this was that if we are choosing a locking standard ourselves we won't have a need for traffic locks. Which in their current state can't be changed lower than what Waze's script thinks they should be.

If you are in a rural area locks aren't need needed as much. Or an area where a good amount of quality editors are active regularly to watch over the editing.

While I don't always agree with the level of lock for a road based on type. I see why they are needed, especially in a large city. And again, this gives us good supporting reasons to avoid a traffic locking system that we have much less control over.

Also it seems we are getting caught up in the name "highway" again when it comes to road type. The end user has no idea what type of road he/she is on. Just that they get routed down them. The FC gives a good variation of roads for Waze to prioritize with. Who cares what the road is labeled as in the editor.

I have seen going to and from work so many improvements in routing. Especially when the main roads have accidents or traffic. Instead of some random zigzag route, Waze will route me down a primary or minor highway. Even if it's a bit longer distance wise, it saves me all the stop and go of the zig zag it used to route me.

That's why we have forums and the Wiki is editable, if we decide that we are now using roads based on the level of the road rather than whatever the name of it is. Then we can change it. We call it progress.

Why get stuck on the past over a name?

Just my .02




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Re: Southwest lock standard?

Postby vectorspace » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:15 pm

Great discussion. Thanks everyone.

The more I consider this, the more I realize it is a local issue both spatially and temporally. Here are some more thoughts after considering all that has been said. I think this is a good topic to bring to the WIki discussion and create a Wiki page for national guidance at some point. Mayabe we can help the seed of that here.

Different regions and areas can choose to change most of this that doesn't violate some hard-and-fast rules such as Freeway and their Ramps at Rank-5. Even this may be adjusted temporarily to allow a lower-level editor to do work, as long as there is some oversight of that region.

I tried to capture all the ideas I heard about and thought about myself as to what would cause one to increase rank locks and what would cause one to decrease rank locks. I put them on the New Mexico Page to sort out the ideas but will reproduce a snapshot here:


When higher lock levels are usually needed:
  • When areal images do not match actual ground conditions. This includes construction areas.
  • Higher value routes that would inconvenience many users if damaged.
  • Particular locations that are frequently damaged by new editors.
  • Areas of the map that are well developed but not frequently visited by editors to check condition, and error reports.
  • Items that have had significant research in creating data in the item such as the naming of a Ramp and the creation and information of a Place.

When lower lock levels are possible:
  • Areas where few mistakes or acts of vandalism occur.
  • Areas that will be frequently visited by AMs or other higher-ranked editors, such that they can keep an eye out for problems.
  • Areas that are purposefully unlocked or reduced in lock level so a lower-level editor can manage and watch over them for an extended period.
  • Items that are briefly unlocked under the real-time oversight of a higher-level editor, then locked after adjustment by a lower-level editor.

The actual set of locking guidance for NM on Roads and Places is here:
https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... .26_Places

For simplicity of a base rule set I like the F/R-5, MH-4, mH-3, PS-2, S-1 then adjusted based upon the above, except we've already agreed nationally that F and R are at Rank-5. I tried to throw some ideas for Places on that page, too.
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