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Railroad naming consensus: short vs long

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It was brought up in chat that now that railroad names are visible in the Waze client app, that a naming standard should be made.

For simplicity sake it was suggested that the short form of the name would declutter the client map.

i.e.: CN Rail, CP Rail, GO Rail, VIA Rail etc.

For Rail maps/atlas by province click this link

Ideas? Thoughts? Discuss!

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Post by codgerd
Is there a good reason to deviate from the US guidance? It's reasonably explicit and clear, and gives guidance for both commercial and urban transit / light rail systems:

https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Railroad#Railroad
Use the following guidelines when naming railroad segments:
For commercially-controlled right-of-ways, rather than apply the default "Railroad" name, you may optionally use the owner's full legal name spelled out without acronyms or abbreviations (e.g. "New Orleans Public Belt Railroad"). Some owners' names incorporate what appear to be or once were acronyms but are actually part of the legal name (e.g., "BNSF Railway", "CSX Railroad").
In case of uncertain ownership, do not guess. Use the default "Railroad" name.
Do not name a railroad segment for a passenger operator that uses it, regardless of how many passengers or how little freight it may carry, unless you are absolutely certain that the passenger operator owns the track. For example, do not name a segment "Amtrak" unless Amtrak actually owns the track (it usually does not, except in the Corridor and in a few other areas).
Do not apply "fallen flags" (former owners that no longer exist due to bankruptcy or merger) in the alternate field.
Keep in mind that should the name of the owner change, due to bankruptcy, merger, or other business decision, you or another editor will need to come back and fix all now-incorrect segments. Railroads can change names often; for example, BNSF Railway has been known by that name only since 2005, and its previous name was in use for only eight years.
For urban rapid transit and light rail systems, rather than apply the default "Railroad" name, you may optionally use the name of the transit authority and the name of the line, separated by a hyphen (e.g., "MBTA - Green Line", "RTA - Riverfront Streetcar").
If a system has only one line, of course, use its name alone (e.g., "Detroit People Mover").
If multiple lines share the same track or run on parallel tracks, include all lines (e.g., "Metro Rail - Red/Purple Lines").
However, if a rapid transit system is so complex that including all line names would lead to an absurd result on some railroad segments, use the name of the system alone (e.g., "BART", "MTA") throughout the system.
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Post by codgerd
I think most Canadians will have no problem identifying CN, CP, and the main urban transit systems (examples: Sky Train in Vancouver, LRT in Edmonton, GO / TTC in Toronto, AMT in Montreal etc). But many of the regional railroads will be quite unknown to the vast majority of editors (not to mention drivers). Is naming a railroad CFBC (Chemin de Fer Baie des Chaleurs), BRR (Battle River Railway), or PCHR (Port Colburne Harbour Railway) or the like useful Waze data? Seeing one of these acronyms, or even the full railroad name, pop up in the client would likely confuse the average driver, not help them, especially if they are not extremely familiar with local geography.

Regardless of what the US decides (assuming they can reach a consensus at all :lol: ) I would propose that a simple rule for us could be that we name the main national lines (CN, CP), and the above-ground urban transit systems, but that all other regional and minor lines are left unnamed. It would be easy to compile a quick table of the lines to name, stating their approved abbreviation, and follow up with a "If it's not on this list, leave it unnamed" instruction. This could go in the Canada wiki, and would be simple, effective, and easy for editors to understand and follow.

EDIT: I would be equally supportive of only naming urban transit systems and leaving all other railroads unnamed.
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Last edited by codgerd on Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by codgerd
kkarkid wrote:Maybe we could standardize on the Canadian Railway Atlas acronyms.
The main issue with that is that we can't expect all drivers to keep a copy of the atlas in their glovebox, so they can quickly pop it out when they cross (for example) the CTRW line to find out it's the Carlton Trail Railway (runs between Prince Albert and Warman, SK). :lol:

I've just gone over the maps of the railway atlas - there's a mess of acronyms in there, none of which will mean the slightest thing to anyone other than hardcore railway aficionados. I am further convinced that, if the long form of the name is not deemed appropriate, then everything other than the urban transit systems and maybe CN/CP should be left unnamed.
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Post by codgerd
ShaneYYZ wrote:What about in situations where GO Milton and CN Rail share the line?

Would it be named, GO Milton-CP Rail or one or the other? I think GO Milton would be more prominent in this case for most users if we're going to name them.
Unfortunately there are relatively few places in the country where this is NOT going to be an issue. Another prominent example is VIA Rail. From here:
VIA Rail Canada operates almost 420 trains weekly on 12,500 kilometres of track, connecting over 450 Canadian communities across the country. (...) While VIA Rail Canada owns 223 kilometers of track, most of the infrastructure used by the passenger service is owned and managed by the freight railways, including ten different national and short-line operators.
Anywhere VIA Rail goes (all 12,500 km of it), you'll be asking the same question and having to make dubious value judgments about which service is more prominent from your point of view. VIA trains are ubiquitous almost across the entire country, and yet they only own 223 km of track.
doctorkb wrote:I would suggest that some form of delineation is necessary when we're talking about an area that has both urban LRT and freight rail.

Urban LRT has crossing delays of seconds (usually). Freight can be an hour. Being able to monitor your route across those differences may be relevant.
Unfortunately, as GO and VIA rail examples show, frequently freight & commuter / passenger services share the same tracks. I think, in the general sense, it will be impossible to delineate them in the Waze client by naming the track. Whatever name you choose will end up not being wholly accurate.
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Post by codgerd
doctorkb wrote:#1a: This may be too soon, but perhaps we should add one more to the list: MMA, so people can know to not park downhill from them?
:o Ouch.... too soon!

MMA though, does represent another example of how difficult it's going to be to accurately name railroads. Technically, they went bankrupt in 2013, were sold at auction in 2014 to Railroad Acquisition Holdings, a subsidiary of Fortress Investment Group. The 'new' railway was due to be called the Central Maine and Quebec Railway (CMQ) - I don't know if the sale was finalized or not. And there were other players bidding on specific portions of the line, so it could further split into other regional railroads. What do we call this line? Most people in SE Quebec would surely still recognize it as the MMA line, if they recognized it as anything other than "le chemin de fer". But if the sale was finalized it means it's technically now called the CMQ line, a name that's sure to mean nothing to most people. And I'm sure it'll change again before the whole mess settles...

I feel this is an awful lot of trouble to go to for very little, if any, return in terms of better navigation. The most important aspect of these landmarks is simply their presence on the map as physical landmarks that can be useful in navigation, not their names, which will always be a moving target that the majority of drivers will never recognize anyway (with the possible exception of urban transit systems).

Cheers
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Post by CoolCanuck
Why not keep it simple and use what's in the Atlas? GO Transit, CN Rail, Canadian-Pacific Railway, Barrie-Collingwood Railway, etc?

Just not Canadian-Pacific (CP) Railway.

Since we are not to map parallel tracks in a yard (people still don't listen), and there are so few railways vs roads, map clutter isn't an issue for tracks.. If every road said "Road", there would be an issue.. but there are not many tracks, when you think about it.
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Post by doctorkb
The US guidance was before it appeared in the client. :)

I'm all for abbreviation.

CN Rail
CP Rail
VIA Rail (probably the same lines as CN Rail, but?)

When it's a commuter train with a named line, use something like
GO Richmond Hill (note lack of "Line")
TTC Yonge-University (note lack of "Line")
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Post by doctorkb
Agreed. We may need to develop our own list since our rail lines are owned by Canadian companies (mostly). :)
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Post by doctorkb
I would suggest that some form of delineation is necessary when we're talking about an area that has both urban LRT and freight rail.

Urban LRT has crossing delays of seconds (usually). Freight can be an hour. Being able to monitor your route across those differences may be relevant.
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Post by doctorkb
Well, sometimes accuracy won't be there. Thankfully, we aren't having to tell someone to turn on the railroad, and the mapping is really a matter of convenience.
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