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Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
To summarize the thread.
Make Trans-Canada Hwy 'Freeway' road type.
Primary name: Hwy 1
Alternate: Trans-Canada Hwy

Minor/Major Highways should be named:
Hwy # (H is capitalized followed by the 'w' and 'y' in lower case, followed by a number)
Not 'Highway #' or 'HWY # (all caps)'.

Very few roads should be named a freeway in Canada. Currently, only ring roads (perimeter roads around a city), Hwy 1 (including the highways Hwy 1 splits into*), Hwy 2 and any highways with limited access (e.g. highways with no street lights and access is exclusive to ramps entrances) .

*There are highways that travel through some National/Provincial parks with frequent stops, reduced speed and undivided portions. These segments should be reduced to a Major highway until the speed increases, stops are minimized and the highway is divided again.
_________________________________________________________________________
Hello everyone,
I'm finding that this highway is being handled differently in different regions of the country and was hoping on getting a global consensus on how we want the highway to be handled across the country. What I propose is naming it "HWY 1" and giving it the alternate name of 'Trans-Canada HWY". I've seen HWY1, Trans-Canada HWY and Trans-Canada HWY 1 being used across the country. Figure we should make it consistent.

Another thing I wanted to discuss, is what road type it should be. From what I've seen in the states (well, in North Dakota at least), state highways are of "freeway" road type. I'm not sure if I agree with using such a model for Canada as, aside from denser areas like Southern Ontario, which may be an exception, access to the highway is NOT limited access and there are many lights along the way, such as through small towns, etc. Its for this reason that I propose that we make it of Major Highway road type, unless the road travels though an area that only has limited access to the highway. Personally, 95% freeway type segments have been for ring roads exclusively, even though city planners fail to make them only limited access in a few areas. I feel that freeways are more so limited to urban settings. Again, this is only my opinion and I'm curious as to what others think. Just want to make everything consistent, to avoid editors switching things back and forth.
James
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Last edited by james_8970 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:03 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
I also summarized what we concluded with in regards to the Trans Canada Hwy in my first post. If anyone has any objections, let me know. I did this so that others wouldn't have to sift through the thread to find our concluding thoughts on the matter.
James
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
I can see both sides of the argument here, but as long as Waze does not show dirt roads in the client, I think gravel roads should remain as roads types. Gravel roads are a fact of life in Canada and I feel that once there is sufficient data in Waze, people should automatically not be routed down gravel roads. This also comes down to driver common sense, if you are traveling from A to B, you shouldn't have to drive down a gravel road at any time unless you're traveling to a farm or establishment in the middle of nowhere, in which case you likely already know where you're going.

For the purpose of contradicting myself, Waze will likely only be used in an urban settings, or for traveling from one urban area to the next. In which case, we want to ensure people always remain on the paved roads and make all rural roads dirt roads. This would consistent with the wiki, I just wish that the type was 'unpaved road' rather than 'dirt road'.

A third option, would be to delete dirt roads from the map altogether and classify gravel roads as 'dirt roads'. This may be our best option as long as Waze does not have a gravel road type.
James
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
We might want to make a thread of its own for that topic, because there could be a bit of a debate for that as well, which may make this thread a mess. With that said, this is my opinion on the matter.

If the turn restrictions are correct, you should always be routed down the paved road as the average speed **should** be quicker. IMO, only dirt roads should be listed as such, because its important for Waze to be able to distinguish the difference between a dirt road and a gravel road. Having grown up on a farm in the summer, dirt roads can often be vastly worse than a gravel road and ruts left behind by heavy grain trucks who travel down the roads when they are wet (urg) could easily get a car stuck on even the driest days. Lets be honest, not all people use their common sense when following a GPS route. Personally, I wish there was a gravel road designation, but alas we don't have that option and I feel that gravel roads should simply be listed as a 'road'.
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
My understanding of the way the routing works is that when the road is initially drawn by an editor, the type it is given is used for routing until the system gets enough data to determine the segments' actual average speeds. That's why they're cookie crumbed for the first little while. After that, it doesn't matter what type it is, the routing just uses what wazers have helped it gather. The only road types I have heard of having a penalty are private roads and parking lot roads, and those are for entry, not driving along. As such, the choice of type should be based on usage and local perception.
I guess I'll have to read into it again tomorrow, but I was under the impression that everything you said was true, with the exception that a lower penalty was still applied to junction points that were of Highway/Freeway road type.
As such, I'd say that Hwy 1, Hwy 2 (at least between Edmonton and Calgary), and Hwy 16 should all be Freeways. On that note, James, if you have the ability to upgrade the short sections of Hwy 2 south of Leduc to Freeway, that'd be great. I don't have the reach. :)
Yeah, Hwy 2 should defiantly be Freeway.
I also think this because (at least up to a couple weeks ago) only Freeways show up at the outermost zoom levels. Now everything disappears very soon....
Yeah, I'm not sure why that problems exists. Wasn't sure if I was the only one experiencing that or not.
James
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james_8970
My understanding of the routing engine is that it will prefer the "higher" types, moving progressively lower until you get to the destination. Therefore, to discount the "Freeway" type simply because our beloved TCH doesn't fit the definition greatly reduces Waze's ability to route appropriately.
I was under the impression that Waze treated Freeways, Major/Minor Highways all the same, it just appears differently on the map. I'm fine if we end up using a freeway for the Trans-Canada Highway, but I don't want this to be our rational if what I said is true. That being said, I'd be fine to make it a freeway to differentiate it and its importance from all the other highways. I'd like to hear from others and what they have to say.
As for "Major Highway" -- in the Prince George BC region, there are two major highways -- Hwy 16 (the "Northern Trans-Canada") and Hwy 97 (the primary north-south highway in BC). Both run right through town. I've upgraded their "official" route to "Major Highway" as this is important for travellers that are going through so as to not get routed off on a side street.
Yeah, I've placed a number of Highways within Winnipeg to optimize routing. Another editor feels that there should be MUCH more than I feel that is necessary and their basing their decisions on what the city classifies as city highways. I'm debating if I should remove far more and would like someone else's opinion.
I think we lose the number when we get to Ontario -- it splits and becomes more than just one highway. Much like Hwy 16 is also dubbed the TCH through western Canada.
Yes it does in Ontario. It splits just west of Thunder Bay as well and turns into the 11 and 17.
Perhaps we need to say:
Primary name: Hwy 1
Alternate: Trans-Canada Hwy 1
See, I think the Alternate should just be "Trans-Canada Hwy". I'm not sure if this is exclusive to Winnipeg, but we never say Trans-Canada Hwy 1 here. It's either Trans-Canada Hwy or Hwy 1. I'm not sure if this varies across the country or not.

You make a good point about not having all caps in "Hwy". I originally started making Hwy in all caps, but I to begun to prefer Hwy, with the last two letters not being caps. Unless anyone else objects, I think we should make this a standard.

James
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james8970
invented wrote:
james8970 wrote:
invented wrote:Because it doesn't match up with the logic of what determines a freeway in the rest of the province. If it's divided and controlled-access, it became a Freeway type.
It is divided and limited access in all about about 8 intersections between the Manitoba border and Calgary.... There are only lights at Winnipeg and Brandon because of stupid city planning. This is a major highway that connects all of Canada and should be a a Freeway type in the West, I have yet to look at it in the east, so I won't comment on the highway over there.
Well here's an eye-opener: the TCH just piggybacks onto other provincial routes east of the Manitoba border. If the road type is not a freeway, it should not be a Freeway type.
I wasn't commenting about eastern Canada. Can we please calm down a little bit...
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james8970
invented wrote:
james8970 wrote:
If it's not a freeway, it shouldn't be a Freeway road type, being that it would make no sense.
Could you elaborate why? Most cities/towns along the Trans-Canada Highway have by-passes. In the case of major/minor highways, they typically travel through cities. Hwy 1 is also a crucial highways connecting Canada from end to end.

I honestly don't see why it shouldn't be a freeway segment type, at least I don't see why it shouldn't be between Kenora and Banff. I haven't gone further east or west on Waze, nor have I driven that far east or west to really know what is appropriate in those respective areas at this time.
James
Because it doesn't match up with the logic of what determines a freeway in the rest of the province. If it's divided and controlled-access, it became a Freeway type.
It is divided and limited access in all about about 8 intersections between the Manitoba border and Calgary.... There are only lights at Winnipeg and Brandon because of stupid city planning. This is a major highway that connects all of Canada and should be a a Freeway type in the West, I have yet to look at it in the east, so I won't comment on the highway over there.
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james8970
If it's not a freeway, it shouldn't be a Freeway road type, being that it would make no sense.
Could you elaborate why? Most cities/towns along the Trans-Canada Highway have by-passes. In the case of major/minor highways, they typically travel through cities. Hwy 1 is also a crucial highways connecting Canada from end to end.

I honestly don't see why it shouldn't be a freeway segment type, at least I don't see why it shouldn't be between Kenora and Banff. I haven't gone further east or west on Waze, nor have I driven that far east or west to really know what is appropriate in those respective areas at this time.
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Re: Trans-Canada highway

Post by james8970
TCH is really a western and eastern designation. In Ontario, the signs merely get hung on the posts of Hwys 11, 17, 417, etc. Nobody calls it the Trans-Canada Highway in normal vernacular, just by the KH name.
That's why its not the official name, rather the alternative name for the highway. What do you mean by KH?
Anyway, I'm not sure how you get a Freeway type out of that stretch of road, it's not controlled access or a freeway. It should be Major to fit in with the rest of the highways in Ontario that look just like that.
I haven't dealt with the Hwys in southern Ontario yet, but its possible they they'll have to be handled differently. In the meantime, I think the way it's done for Western Canada is fine, numerous others tend to agree which is why I finally made the change back in January.
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