Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby Atlas85 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:53 am

waynemcdougall wrote:
That is a different type of error, and correctable by map editors, and Waze itself will often learn to correct it.

It happens when the junction is set wrong. If a junction shows a turn is allowed then Waze will take it, regardless of the road type. So if two roads are connected Waze will route along them, even if the second road is no entrance, or one-way (and you're being routed in the wrong direction).

They need to be fixed on the map.


They are fixed on the map. No turns are allowed on a freeway and waze should know that. Because it leads to exactly the same problems as BrutusNL describes and is in fact the same problem. Waze ignores no-turn restrictions pretty often, despite what the map says. If 1 segment on a freeway is broken (wrong driving direction, for instance), it makes you turn around on the freeway because of that. Uhm, where is the logic in that? And that's basically what happened to BrutusNL.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby robin1979 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:49 am

gerben wrote:
BrutusNL wrote:[ img ][ img ]Here's two of today's problems. Don't know the exact streetname (was not edited yet) but I had set Waze to a treasurechest in Veldhoven. And since i had already passed the exit had to drive back, which Waze solved in the shown route.


In the first example, the problematic segment at the 'top of the T' was edited today, maybe it was not locked before. In the second example, the top is still unlocked.


And it routes okay now on the livemap.

I am pretty sure this is a regression btw, it didn't route like this before - I've literally tried thousands of routes like this.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:37 am

gerben wrote:I think that once the segments are locked, and the change has been taken to the live map, routing will be fine. When unlocked, Waze thinks the segment might be two-way, which is clearly not the case here.


This is dangerous nonsense, and wrong.

Dangerous nonsense: I've said this before. If Waze will only produce correct routes if roads are locked, then all roads should be locked. It's an absurdity otherwise. Worse, we have no guarantee that will even fix the problem. This only happens in some cases; since locking just increases probabilities that things go right (supposedly - I have my doubts), we can't be sure it won't still go wrong.

Wrong: Regardless of the nonsense about locking, it's just wrong. I gave an example of routing that failed going from point A to point Z.

But Waze will correctly route from point Y to Z (a distance of 639 metres)

And Waze will correctly route from A to Y (a distance of 18 km).

But when you ask to go from A to Z , it makes an illegal turn to travel 790m.

So both @Robyn1979 and @Perlin of Waze support are utterly wrong to say that Waze doesn't have a better route and is choosing the lesser evil. I've already shown Waze will travel 40km to travel a few hundred metres without making an illegal turn. Yet here it does it to save 25 seconds on a 13 minutes trip? I don't think so.

Therefore it's not because of the locking.

Maybe the routing algorithm is fine, in which case the map is corrupt in some way that map editors can't see. In which case there needs to be a comprehensive check not just in this place, but the whole map to see if that problem is lurking elsewhere.

In any event, I'm tired of these trite and wrong defences of the indefensible. It is seriously, dangerously, negligently wrong and needs to be fixed.

Gee, and I though I was a one-eyed Waze fanboi...
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby gerben » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:18 am

BrutusNL wrote:[ img ][ img ]Here's two of today's problems. Don't know the exact streetname (was not edited yet) but I had set Waze to a treasurechest in Veldhoven. And since i had already passed the exit had to drive back, which Waze solved in the shown route.


In the first example, the problematic segment at the 'top of the T' was edited today, maybe it was not locked before. In the second example, the top is still unlocked.

I think that once the segments are locked, and the change has been taken to the live map, routing will be fine. When unlocked, Waze thinks the segment might be two-way, which is clearly not the case here.

For normal roads this is already a problem, but when dealing with freeways and ramps, it gets horrendous. Maybe the solution is to automatically lock one-way segments of freeways and ramps. As said before, better a detour because of a map-error than a short route like this.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:28 pm

@BrutusNL, buddy, I didn't believe you, but once you convinced me....I'm advocating for you, bro'.

My email:

I'm sorry but your response is both simplistic and wrong. As per the forum thread I linked you to viewtopic.php?p=45779#p45779 this example http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515 is the simplest segment of wrong- real life routing.

As you noted in the thread, you couldn't replicate the client routing error. It's hard. That's why you have a simple example to deal with. Resolve that, and you resolve a serious real world problem.

Look, here's the routing from the mirror image on the other side:
http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=6&l ... g=89629515

Note how Waze will route 30km (two alternatives!) rather than break a turn restriction here!

And another case - exactly analogous. Coming up a one-way ramp, Waze does not route back the wrong way, but finds a legal 12km route.

http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=7&l ... g=89629515

> this is the only way that waze's navigation server can suggest.

That's just not true. Your statement is wrong. There are other valid connected routes that waze could suggest. They are longer, but Waze routes something that goes against connectivity.

In my model example, and in @BrutusNL real world example, both are travelling the wrong way up one-way roads. This is a fault.

> is illogical due to the fact that the origin and destination points are too
> close to one another

That is also wrong. Very wrong. I've done hundreds of such short routes - testing connectivity and routes - and never had Waze suggest something wrong to me. If it can't route it will tell me no route to the destination.

So here there is either something wrong with the map, or wrong with the routing algorithm.

You are also wrong to accept that. Consider a new wazer doing a simple test and getting a result like that. Now think of that wazer being a major blogger, or journalist.

Waze should not do it, and never does except in some cases which also are real-world problems.

Look, I don't know your role in Waze Perlin. Maybe you're frontline staff who has to deal with the numerous people with trivial complaints and misunderstandings.

If you don't know how the map works or the routing algoirthm, please escalate it to someone who does. If you do know, please look at it and not dismiss it because it's too short and simplistic, and then also complain you can't reproduce the full route as well.

On 22 October 2010 03:22, Waze Alpha Support <alpha@waze.com> wrote:
> Hi Wayne,
> Indeed the route you showed us
> here: http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515
> is illogical due to the fact that the origin and destination points are too
> close to one another and this is the only way that waze's navigation
> server can suggest.
> Please write us your actual origin+destination points and the date of the
> drive (when the problematic route happened).
> Also, next time you drive this route, send us a screenshot of your client.
> Thanks,
> Perlin
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Waze Alpha Support <alpha@waze.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wayne,
>> Thank you for writing us.
>> We're currently checking out this problem and will let you know when we
>> found out more.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Perlin
>> Waze support team
>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Wayne McDougall
>> <waynemcdougall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Please look at this:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515
>>>
>>> This is a real life problem as documented here
>>> viewtopic.php?p=45779#p45779 - the above is
>>> just a bare, simple example. The connectivity is right, the roads
>>> haven't been edited since June. And on the Livemap (not just the
>>> client) I get routed to make a restricted turn and go the wrong way
>>> down a one-way ramp.
>>>
>>> This is serious. I look forward to your considered reply.
>>>
>>> Wayne McDougall
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:28 pm

support wrote:Hi BrutusNL,

We tried to recreate this problematic route you've mentioned and it looks fine. We got a perfectly drivable route. Please mention the date of your drive (when you got this specific route) and the origin+destination spots, so we can look into this more thoroughly.
Write these details to our support mail (alpha@waze.com) and we'll answer you personally.

Thanks,

Perlin


Doi! Support, I already went through that exercise for you, breaking it down by recreating the problematic route into the simplest, perfect example for you. Fix that and you fix @BrutusNL problems too. Don't get distracted by the route. Look at this, and explain what's going on and fix it:

http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515

It's reproducible - you click on the link above. :mrgreen:

I hope that you are looking at it already, as per our email, and not getting distracted by longer, more complicated examples.

This one is very wrong, and it's only two roads and a turn. And it's correct on cartouche.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:23 pm

BrutusNL wrote:Maybe the turn was messed up, but the ramp was one way, nothing more, nothing less...ergo you can never give directions to drive against traffic. Maybe even more so on ramps or freeways.


No, the turn wasn't messed up. Waze will allow routing, if the roads are connected, regardless of the destination road type and direction. That I can understand. Map editors can fix that. But that wasn't the case here.

BrutusNL wrote:I am not a newbie and, though not as much as you, have done my share of editting and I know for a fact that e.g. the left turn at Machinekade was correctly restricted by disabling all turns at the junction except the one I manually allowed and making the road 'no entrance'.


I wonder if you are misusing no entrance? That means the road is closed. Impassable. No turns in or our allowed at either end of the road segment.
[/quote]
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Atlas85 wrote:Haven’t yet read the complete topic BUT: Waze does this A LOT. I’ve seen more than one (or 20, or 50!) occasions where it either leads me into 1-way roads (locked & unlocked), or makes me turn around on the freeway against the traffic. It is a pretty common error, although easily ignorable. It does make routing and navigating hard and unreliable.

EDIT: waze should never ignore manual-restricted intersections and driving directions, as it may assume they are more correct than a road with a missing segment. It should than just give you a warning "Can't find a route", not leading you to your possible death - although you are of course reliable for your own actions.


That is a different type of error, and correctable by map editors, and Waze itself will often learn to correct it.

It happens when the junction is set wrong. If a junction shows a turn is allowed then Waze will take it, regardless of the road type. So if two roads are connected Waze will route along them, even if the second road is no entrance, or one-way (and you're being routed in the wrong direction).

They need to be fixed on the map.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:15 pm

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:
robin1979 wrote:http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7&lat=52.07645&lon=5.15744&layers=BTFTFFFFTFFFFFFFFTTTTT&seg-1=89636563

Somebody broke the map there.


Agreed. Hopefully it was humans and not the Waze server. I have fixed it.


Do you have rights for fix things there???


Waze posted that with countries with Base Maps they are giving everyone permission. Everyone has enough editing permissions to get a base map functional. I documented this at http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Deal ... amed_roads

In short anyone can fix this problem the way I did.
a) click on junction to select it
b) restrict all turns (that removes the illegal turns into a one-way road)
c) enable all turns (this only enables turns that are valid according to the one-way road structure)

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:But that's not the turn that I reported. I'm not sure where that one comes from - I haven't looked at them all. Just one that is faulty turn directions on a good map, as I reported and is linked above.


No, it's not the turn you reported, but the road further ahead is broken, so Waze tries to find a route anyway. Since it can't route you the correct way (because that's broken), it suggests you this route. It's choosing between two evils...


Nope, you are wrong. Very wrong.

Most wrong because that junction simply had additional connectivity that it shouldn't have had. But the correct turn was still available. Waze wasn't restricted in going the correct route. And indeed choosing a different destination (say the other side of the cloverleaf) would see Waze route over 18km to get to a road a few 100m away.

Additionally wrong because Waze shouldn't make illegal turns that are contrary to the map rules just because the map is broken later on (even though in fact, it was not broken in the way you claim)

Case 1: It had a choice between utter evil and a long road trip, and choose utter evil
or
Case 2: the map is broken in a way that can't be seen by map editors

robin1979 wrote:Read the disclaimer on startup (btw: I'm using the English client - I'm not a big fan of the Dutch language).


Do you mean installation? I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you quote, or point at somewhere someone can find this. Regardless of any disclaimer, I think all my points stand. But I don't remember seeing any disclaimer that say that Waze may decide to turn you up the wrongway up a freeway ramp, even if you edit the map to stop it.

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:
robin1979 wrote:Everybody who blindly follows his navigation system anyway is a perfect example of Darwin's law (and - actually - Dutch law...


Yes, but...

Other cases of GPS failures have been where roads have changed, or fallen into disrepair, or not been suitable for vehicles...things you can basically understand.

People would not understand a modern, crowdsourced GPS system that sends you the wrong-way up a freeway ramp, when the underlying map is perfectly correct.

They would say the system was dangerously and negligently defective.

And they would be right.


Not by dutch standards, and definitely not by Dutch law. It is the same as putting a cat in the microwave, in the Netherlands you will get sued for harming an animal, in other countries the supplier/manufacturer of the appliance gets sued.
[/quote]

There is a difference between using something according to instructions and using it against instructions and common sense.

You are also confusing a strict legal argument with the public relations implications. Not to mention whether people will trust and use Waze.

I also know for a legal fact that you are wrong, even in the Netherlands. Your analogy is flawed. I think most people will see that you are wrong, even in the Netherlands so I won't wast any more bandwidth on arguing with you.

I'm very disappointed in your reasoning. I had hoped your high points showed that you were a responsible and thoughtful member of the Waze community. Perhaps you see Waze primarily as a game.

Waze support have replied to my email to say they are looking at it, and will report back.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby BrutusNL » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:01 pm

support wrote:Write these details to our support mail (alpha@waze.com) and we'll answer you personally.
Thanks,
Perlin
I will do this tonight, since I need to spend a little time on my dayjob now :mrgreen: I don't know the exact date of the screenshot with the messed-up route, would need to look that op in the EXIF info of the screenshot. Anyway, I was routing to Kerkplein in Beverwijk and took a detour, resulting in Waze recalculating the route. Maybe that's a clue? Specifically since it happened twice again this afternoon when I didn't follow the suggested route (missed the exit) and Waze recalculated. Fortunately I have made screenshots of those two occasions, which I will upload shortly. More info will follow in an email as soon as I'm available again. Thanks for looking into it!
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