Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:54 am

[quote="BrutusNL"]I see now that the roads, though one-way have not been locked. Could this be a reason? If so, is it wise to also lock no-enterance roads?

You know what? Who cares? :evil:

If Waze can only be used by uber-nerdy map editors who know the magic buttons to click to stop Waze routing them to their death, then, you know what, that's a problem.

Oh, it's your fault: you hadn't gone online to Cartouche and locked that road segment, No wonder Waze routed you that way.

Oops, I'm being sarcastic. Sorry.

I love Waze. I think it's great. The programmer inside me is itching to get at it. I defend it as much as I can - and as is justified.

But not this time. This is a serious routing bug I'm sure it will be fixed. I want the underlying cause to be fixed, and not a few junctions that are faulty to be fixed. Maybe it's old, bad historical data that can be cured. But I want it truly resolved. And going in and ticking boxes isn't the answer.

Waze should work normally, as normal. I personally believe locking should only be used in extraordinarily perverse cases - if you need to lock to make things work right as a matter of course, then why not just set everything to be locked, and add a superlock?

Love Waze. I may be wrong, but this looks like a killer bug. Glad I've never seen anything like it in my country. I'm confident Waze will fix it quick and well.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:59 am

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:If Waze can only be used by uber-nerdy map editors who know the magic buttons to click to stop Waze routing them to their death, then, you know what, that's a problem.


He enabled 'prefer road-munching', which causes this. This will not happen for normal users (they will only be routed through verified roads. It's not as big of a problem as you seem to make it now.

Also, this behavior is described in the wiki somewhere.


In short @Robin1979 you are wrong.

1. This happens on the Livemap as per my link above. So you are wrong - nothing to do with road munching option. Even worse, the proposed route doesn't travel along any unmunched roads. So your comment is nonsensical. I don't think BrutusNL even has road-munching on for the case he's given us.

2. Road munching shouldn't be an option on a GPS that you make available to the masses if it is equivalent to "drive along the motorway into oncoming traffic" mode. If your claim was true, which it is not, it would be insane to have it an an option. But you're wrong. Road-munching just gives the Waze router a higher weight to unmunched roads - in effect it gives such road-segments have a higher average speed when evaluating a route. I've never had it give me a crazy route...just slightly longer. But then I make sure the maps in my area have all the roads well connected - perhaps an advantage of not having a basemap - most of the roads added are already connected.

3. Waze giving illegal turn advice on a freeway, under normal operating conditions, with a normal map, is a big deal. Bad publicity on an incident like this could be horrendous. You are wrong - it is a big deal.

4. Describe don the wiki somewhere.....uhhuh....well I won't say you're wrong. I'll just give it the weight that comment deserves....

And so we move on.

Either something is wrong in the underlying database, or else Waze's weighting didn't allow for horrendous motorways and one-way ramps. I've experimented a little further around that junction. Waze will correctly route even if it has to go 18km to go a few hundred metres, rather than break a turn restriction. So either that turn requires even greater travelling, or there's something wrong in the map which we can't see.

Either case is very bad.

Real-life driving with real life options, road-munching or no, should not turn you the wrong way up a freeway ramp. I was worried I was being too apologetic at times in defence of Waze, but now I see there are more fervent believers than me.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:04 am

BrutusNL wrote:Robin, I disagree. One if the 'crowd pleasers' is the pacman effect. If I am a newbie and see that I can switch on something to collect more points, it should never disobey the restrictions that apply. Under no circumstance! Specifically when it has been manually restricted. And 'normal' users won't read the wiki, so it's no use to expect this to be sufficient information.
I second Wayne in that I am a huge Waze fan and love the general community idea. However, and it might be the Halloween spirit, I fear that Waze will never really pickup if these basics of a gps navi are not working properly. People give up after two or three of those stupid errors and that leaves us with a community of 50-100 Waze fanatics.


Wot he said.

Worse, one accident, one piece of bad publicity, one mocking newspaper article, and your venture capital dries up and the startup dies and the waze server goes away. Or someone sues. Remember that woman suing Google because the walking advice it gave her took her along a busy road and she slipped. Even if you can defend it, it can be expensive. And this sort of thing looks indefensible to me.

I hate even saying it, because I don't want this thread lying around scaring people when the issue has been resolved. Or I'm shown to be completely wrong somehow and everything is fine and safe.

I just didn't believe BrutusNL. I'd never seen such a thing, and had Waze tell me plenty of times that a route wasn't possible. He showed me the evidence. And I can't see how he is not right. (Sorry for you Dutch speakers - can you parse that one OK :-) )

So it needs to be addressed. And then I'd be happy for Waze to delete this thread (or my comments) if they don't want these out-of-date complaints tarnishing them in the future.

But make the complaints out-of-date please.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:53 am

robin1979 wrote:http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7&lat=52.07645&lon=5.15744&layers=BTFTFFFFTFFFFFFFFTTTTT&seg-1=89636563

Somebody broke the map there.


Agreed. Hopefully it was humans and not the Waze server. I have fixed it.

But that's not the turn that I reported. I'm not sure where that one comes from - I haven't looked at them all. Just one that is faulty turn directions on a good map, as I reported and is linked above.

robin1979 wrote:Waze chooses the any route (and it warns you it might not be correct).


Possibly you have a bad translation. In English we are told the road may not be optimal. That means it may not be the best possible route. There may be a better route. You are offered a good route, but it may not be the best possible (the optimal route). We are never told in English that the route may be wrong.

robin1979 wrote:Everybody who blindly follows his navigation system anyway is a perfect example of Darwin's law (and - actually - Dutch law...
[/quote]

Yes, but...

Other cases of GPS failures have been where roads have changed, or fallen into disrepair, or not been suitable for vehicles...things you can basically understand.

People would not understand a modern, crowdsourced GPS system that sends you the wrong-way up a freeway ramp, when the underlying map is perfectly correct.

They would say the system was dangerously and negligently defective.

And they would be right.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:15 pm

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:
robin1979 wrote:http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7&lat=52.07645&lon=5.15744&layers=BTFTFFFFTFFFFFFFFTTTTT&seg-1=89636563

Somebody broke the map there.


Agreed. Hopefully it was humans and not the Waze server. I have fixed it.


Do you have rights for fix things there???


Waze posted that with countries with Base Maps they are giving everyone permission. Everyone has enough editing permissions to get a base map functional. I documented this at http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Deal ... amed_roads

In short anyone can fix this problem the way I did.
a) click on junction to select it
b) restrict all turns (that removes the illegal turns into a one-way road)
c) enable all turns (this only enables turns that are valid according to the one-way road structure)

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:But that's not the turn that I reported. I'm not sure where that one comes from - I haven't looked at them all. Just one that is faulty turn directions on a good map, as I reported and is linked above.


No, it's not the turn you reported, but the road further ahead is broken, so Waze tries to find a route anyway. Since it can't route you the correct way (because that's broken), it suggests you this route. It's choosing between two evils...


Nope, you are wrong. Very wrong.

Most wrong because that junction simply had additional connectivity that it shouldn't have had. But the correct turn was still available. Waze wasn't restricted in going the correct route. And indeed choosing a different destination (say the other side of the cloverleaf) would see Waze route over 18km to get to a road a few 100m away.

Additionally wrong because Waze shouldn't make illegal turns that are contrary to the map rules just because the map is broken later on (even though in fact, it was not broken in the way you claim)

Case 1: It had a choice between utter evil and a long road trip, and choose utter evil
or
Case 2: the map is broken in a way that can't be seen by map editors

robin1979 wrote:Read the disclaimer on startup (btw: I'm using the English client - I'm not a big fan of the Dutch language).


Do you mean installation? I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you quote, or point at somewhere someone can find this. Regardless of any disclaimer, I think all my points stand. But I don't remember seeing any disclaimer that say that Waze may decide to turn you up the wrongway up a freeway ramp, even if you edit the map to stop it.

robin1979 wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:
robin1979 wrote:Everybody who blindly follows his navigation system anyway is a perfect example of Darwin's law (and - actually - Dutch law...


Yes, but...

Other cases of GPS failures have been where roads have changed, or fallen into disrepair, or not been suitable for vehicles...things you can basically understand.

People would not understand a modern, crowdsourced GPS system that sends you the wrong-way up a freeway ramp, when the underlying map is perfectly correct.

They would say the system was dangerously and negligently defective.

And they would be right.


Not by dutch standards, and definitely not by Dutch law. It is the same as putting a cat in the microwave, in the Netherlands you will get sued for harming an animal, in other countries the supplier/manufacturer of the appliance gets sued.
[/quote]

There is a difference between using something according to instructions and using it against instructions and common sense.

You are also confusing a strict legal argument with the public relations implications. Not to mention whether people will trust and use Waze.

I also know for a legal fact that you are wrong, even in the Netherlands. Your analogy is flawed. I think most people will see that you are wrong, even in the Netherlands so I won't wast any more bandwidth on arguing with you.

I'm very disappointed in your reasoning. I had hoped your high points showed that you were a responsible and thoughtful member of the Waze community. Perhaps you see Waze primarily as a game.

Waze support have replied to my email to say they are looking at it, and will report back.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Atlas85 wrote:Haven’t yet read the complete topic BUT: Waze does this A LOT. I’ve seen more than one (or 20, or 50!) occasions where it either leads me into 1-way roads (locked & unlocked), or makes me turn around on the freeway against the traffic. It is a pretty common error, although easily ignorable. It does make routing and navigating hard and unreliable.

EDIT: waze should never ignore manual-restricted intersections and driving directions, as it may assume they are more correct than a road with a missing segment. It should than just give you a warning "Can't find a route", not leading you to your possible death - although you are of course reliable for your own actions.


That is a different type of error, and correctable by map editors, and Waze itself will often learn to correct it.

It happens when the junction is set wrong. If a junction shows a turn is allowed then Waze will take it, regardless of the road type. So if two roads are connected Waze will route along them, even if the second road is no entrance, or one-way (and you're being routed in the wrong direction).

They need to be fixed on the map.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:23 pm

BrutusNL wrote:Maybe the turn was messed up, but the ramp was one way, nothing more, nothing less...ergo you can never give directions to drive against traffic. Maybe even more so on ramps or freeways.


No, the turn wasn't messed up. Waze will allow routing, if the roads are connected, regardless of the destination road type and direction. That I can understand. Map editors can fix that. But that wasn't the case here.

BrutusNL wrote:I am not a newbie and, though not as much as you, have done my share of editting and I know for a fact that e.g. the left turn at Machinekade was correctly restricted by disabling all turns at the junction except the one I manually allowed and making the road 'no entrance'.


I wonder if you are misusing no entrance? That means the road is closed. Impassable. No turns in or our allowed at either end of the road segment.
[/quote]
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:28 pm

support wrote:Hi BrutusNL,

We tried to recreate this problematic route you've mentioned and it looks fine. We got a perfectly drivable route. Please mention the date of your drive (when you got this specific route) and the origin+destination spots, so we can look into this more thoroughly.
Write these details to our support mail (alpha@waze.com) and we'll answer you personally.

Thanks,

Perlin


Doi! Support, I already went through that exercise for you, breaking it down by recreating the problematic route into the simplest, perfect example for you. Fix that and you fix @BrutusNL problems too. Don't get distracted by the route. Look at this, and explain what's going on and fix it:

http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515

It's reproducible - you click on the link above. :mrgreen:

I hope that you are looking at it already, as per our email, and not getting distracted by longer, more complicated examples.

This one is very wrong, and it's only two roads and a turn. And it's correct on cartouche.
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:28 pm

@BrutusNL, buddy, I didn't believe you, but once you convinced me....I'm advocating for you, bro'.

My email:

I'm sorry but your response is both simplistic and wrong. As per the forum thread I linked you to viewtopic.php?p=45779#p45779 this example http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515 is the simplest segment of wrong- real life routing.

As you noted in the thread, you couldn't replicate the client routing error. It's hard. That's why you have a simple example to deal with. Resolve that, and you resolve a serious real world problem.

Look, here's the routing from the mirror image on the other side:
http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=6&l ... g=89629515

Note how Waze will route 30km (two alternatives!) rather than break a turn restriction here!

And another case - exactly analogous. Coming up a one-way ramp, Waze does not route back the wrong way, but finds a legal 12km route.

http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=7&l ... g=89629515

> this is the only way that waze's navigation server can suggest.

That's just not true. Your statement is wrong. There are other valid connected routes that waze could suggest. They are longer, but Waze routes something that goes against connectivity.

In my model example, and in @BrutusNL real world example, both are travelling the wrong way up one-way roads. This is a fault.

> is illogical due to the fact that the origin and destination points are too
> close to one another

That is also wrong. Very wrong. I've done hundreds of such short routes - testing connectivity and routes - and never had Waze suggest something wrong to me. If it can't route it will tell me no route to the destination.

So here there is either something wrong with the map, or wrong with the routing algorithm.

You are also wrong to accept that. Consider a new wazer doing a simple test and getting a result like that. Now think of that wazer being a major blogger, or journalist.

Waze should not do it, and never does except in some cases which also are real-world problems.

Look, I don't know your role in Waze Perlin. Maybe you're frontline staff who has to deal with the numerous people with trivial complaints and misunderstandings.

If you don't know how the map works or the routing algoirthm, please escalate it to someone who does. If you do know, please look at it and not dismiss it because it's too short and simplistic, and then also complain you can't reproduce the full route as well.

On 22 October 2010 03:22, Waze Alpha Support <alpha@waze.com> wrote:
> Hi Wayne,
> Indeed the route you showed us
> here: http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515
> is illogical due to the fact that the origin and destination points are too
> close to one another and this is the only way that waze's navigation
> server can suggest.
> Please write us your actual origin+destination points and the date of the
> drive (when the problematic route happened).
> Also, next time you drive this route, send us a screenshot of your client.
> Thanks,
> Perlin
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Waze Alpha Support <alpha@waze.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wayne,
>> Thank you for writing us.
>> We're currently checking out this problem and will let you know when we
>> found out more.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Perlin
>> Waze support team
>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Wayne McDougall
>> <waynemcdougall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Please look at this:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=9&l ... g=89629515
>>>
>>> This is a real life problem as documented here
>>> viewtopic.php?p=45779#p45779 - the above is
>>> just a bare, simple example. The connectivity is right, the roads
>>> haven't been edited since June. And on the Livemap (not just the
>>> client) I get routed to make a restricted turn and go the wrong way
>>> down a one-way ramp.
>>>
>>> This is serious. I look forward to your considered reply.
>>>
>>> Wayne McDougall
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Re: Routing ignores all turn restrictions and road closures

Postby waynemcdougall » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:37 am

gerben wrote:I think that once the segments are locked, and the change has been taken to the live map, routing will be fine. When unlocked, Waze thinks the segment might be two-way, which is clearly not the case here.


This is dangerous nonsense, and wrong.

Dangerous nonsense: I've said this before. If Waze will only produce correct routes if roads are locked, then all roads should be locked. It's an absurdity otherwise. Worse, we have no guarantee that will even fix the problem. This only happens in some cases; since locking just increases probabilities that things go right (supposedly - I have my doubts), we can't be sure it won't still go wrong.

Wrong: Regardless of the nonsense about locking, it's just wrong. I gave an example of routing that failed going from point A to point Z.

But Waze will correctly route from point Y to Z (a distance of 639 metres)

And Waze will correctly route from A to Y (a distance of 18 km).

But when you ask to go from A to Z , it makes an illegal turn to travel 790m.

So both @Robyn1979 and @Perlin of Waze support are utterly wrong to say that Waze doesn't have a better route and is choosing the lesser evil. I've already shown Waze will travel 40km to travel a few hundred metres without making an illegal turn. Yet here it does it to save 25 seconds on a 13 minutes trip? I don't think so.

Therefore it's not because of the locking.

Maybe the routing algorithm is fine, in which case the map is corrupt in some way that map editors can't see. In which case there needs to be a comprehensive check not just in this place, but the whole map to see if that problem is lurking elsewhere.

In any event, I'm tired of these trite and wrong defences of the indefensible. It is seriously, dangerously, negligently wrong and needs to be fixed.

Gee, and I though I was a one-eyed Waze fanboi...
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