Missing prompts

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Re: Missing prompts

Postby deeggo » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:41 am

waynemcdougall wrote:
deeggo wrote: I have been annoyed for a long time by a oval shaped roundabout in my region, that triggers a continue straight for both continuing straight (which is the 2nd exit) and turning left (which is the 3rd exit). Support couldn't get it right either. Imho it is clear that the server cannot always properly tell what is straight and what not. So better not use that then. The number of the exit however is always exact. No interpretation by the server needed.


You make a good point. I've never suffered that, but we're not big on roundabouts in my country. I'd really like to look at this one of yours - could you give a permalink, if you don't mind me having a look.

I don't mind. It's a roundabout above a freeway. Here it is. Coming from the east, and turning left (the exit where the purple line points to in the image below) triggers the same 'at the rndbt continue straight' as going straight (where the yellow line points to).

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Re: Missing prompts

Postby deeggo » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:47 pm

waynemcdougall wrote:1. You have beautiful roads. And a beautiful map.

Thanks!
2. I notice there are little kinks in the connections of the roads to the roundabout. Not that that is the cause, but I'm curious about why they are there. Can I learn something?
They were an experiment. Another user suggested that a exiting road perpendicular to the roundabout roads might solve it. Obviously it didn't.
3. Not that you needed confirming, but yes I confirm the same problem.
:mrgreen:
4. No wonder you are annoyed. It is totally unacceptable to get wrong verbal instructions.
I agree. You can watch the map on your device and see where to go. However, I want the instructions to be right AND I want to understand how it works and why it doesn't in this case. I'm a precisian :geek:
5. I'd guess that it is the angle of arrival and departure. A long thin roundabout - but that design must be standard. Are there other roundabouts in this shape that work correctly? That you can point me at?
I know of no similar roundabouts at all, unfortunately.
6. BUT I don't get straight through instructions here: http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... =101183984
Rather it's take the 2nd exit going from SW to NE or NE to SW
Indeed, that's a 'simple' roundabout. I have dozens of those in my region. They never were any trouble. Come to think of it, one day they all were! One day some time ago - can't remember the date - all simple roundabouts suddenly used the keep right/left continue straight format. 15 minutes later upon restarting Waze for my short trip back home they were all fine again. I reported it with support, but they never found out what caused this temporary glitch. But that has nothing to do with this specific roundabout.
7. But man other places work fine, such as here:
http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... 1=84320144
That roundabout is very straight forwards too.
8. I do think continue straight and turn left and turn right at roundabout are better for people to understand, especially in places where nearly all the roundabouts are simple. But it has to work for all cases!
I agree, but in NL, many 'simple' roundabouts connecting 4 roads can even be a bit tricky, as the angles between the exits may be far from 90 degrees. So, continue straight may actually be 'keeping a bit left', if you get what I mean. But enough about my preference. Either way, the system has to do it right, but we agree on this.
9. One way would not be to make it a roundabout at all. Just roads that are in an oval shape. But would drivers consider it to be a roundabout, and expect at the nth exit?
It formally is a roundabout. The traffic signs say so. Furthermore, the distance between the 2nd and 3rd exit in this case is so small, that only a "Turn right" wouldn't be enough. The turn right for the 3rd exit would be heard upon passing the 2nd exit, causing people to quickly take that exit.
10. On review I think it is the angle of the relative locations of the entrances and the exits - it's probably too complex to look at the angle of the departing road segment, which will change.
Support had a story about the angles of the lines that go to the exits from the roundabout centre node. Those angles should be important (see the image in my previous post). However, changing the location of the centre node - I even placed it outside of the roundabout to try - didn't help.
11. My suggestion would be if the distance is more than 40m to switch to nth exit prompts. That should be easy to implement.
I think it should be dependent of the diameter. A hypothetical roundabout with a diameter of 10m with ten exits has 6m per exit. Maybe the angle is a better approach. Then it should say if the angle between exits is smaller than X then switch to nth exits prompts.
12. What is the current status of your discussions with Waze HQ support?
Support more or less gave up, because they didn't know what the actual mechanism is. That surprised me. Their colleagues made it.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby deeggo » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:55 pm

waynemcdougall wrote:Yes, I understand. I don't mind if it is a bit to the left. but major differences shouldn't be straight ahead. I'd be interested in seeing any other even 'simple' ones that you think are wrong.

At the moment, there aren't any. That's because all the simple ones use the nth exit prompts. No errors possible there. However, IF one day Waze implements keep left/right prompts for all roundabouts, then these may become unclear.

waynemcdougall wrote:I think we'll see if my suggestion will work. :-) Because it can take existing data from routing server. Whereas your suggestion requires a lot of information and calculations in surrounding areas. Think about the implementation.

My suggestion was to use the angles. As Dror wrote, the server is already using some angles in its determination of the prompt. It's not doing it right though and he doesn't really know why. So this approach isn't totally new. But I don't mind what they'll implement of course, if it works.

waynemcdougall wrote:See at that roundabout, I'd be happy if it said (turn right at the aroundabout) for the first exit and (take the second exit) and (take the third exit) for the next two.

Sound fine!

waynemcdougall wrote:A support person isn't going to be a programmer. And programmers shouldn't waste time on support.

That's why it is so important to carefully prepare a case and argument that you pass on to support who can almost just flick it on to the programming development team who can look at it and understand it.

OK, well I'm not going to give up on this until there is an answer. I think I shall recreate this roundabout in the middle of the ocean and find out what the limits are. That is going to take a long time (weeks or months), as I need to wait for the Livemap updates to check the routing. But I won't give up.
Take your time ;) It's been like this since the beginning of the basemap. I hope you can tackle it!

waynemcdougall wrote:Conversely, if it does start working for you, please don't post in this forum topic, along with any other comments or helpful references. Or you can PM me if you prefer.
I guess you mean "don't forget to post in this topic"?
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby robin1979 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:14 am

How is it possible you are editing on the other side of the world?
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:39 pm

I've made some changes that I think will fix it. Sorry for not just telling you want to do, but it's easier if you look at what I did. And I can't guarantee it will work. But I think it will.

I'd say the problem was that Waze things you are just going straight ahead. I think the general solution is to make a sharp Y connection.

I've also aligned the roads better with the aerials and GPS traces - the north bound lane was way too far south.

Finally I've moved the intersection back to the first right-turn arrow on the road. I really think you need more notice to move into the lane, since it has now become a compulsory turning lane.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:33 am

You did ask me this and I did tell you before. But to repeat myself

Waze staff posted that anyone can edit a base map.
I wrote it up on the wiki in help for dealing with a grid of unnamed roads.

@Brutusnl that was an interesting case. Waze would not direct a turn if you routed either way. So something to work around when there is a fork where the roads very gently curve away.

I hope it works and look forward to the feedback.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:07 pm

BrutusNL wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:Waze would not direct a turn if you routed either way. So something to work around when there is a fork where the roads very gently curve away.
How can you see the instructions in Livemap?


Oh dear, I didn't mean to lead you astray. No, you can't see route instructions on the Livemap. I just used the client and create two routes that went either way through the fork. Then looked at the direction list on the client. Neither routes offered any turn directions at the fork - neither keep left nor keep right.

I consider this a bug in the routing software, but since the routing (IMO) otherwise works brilliantly, and (I believe) it can be easily fixed with a tweak on the map, I don't intend to holler about it.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:46 am

deeggo wrote:No, my point is, that the voice instructions were right, before. Both keep right to Breda and keep left to Hilversum. No doubt about that. That's why I'm wondering what changed to make them disappear.


That's a very good question. It should have worked as it stood. Let's get Waze staff to look at it before the livemap updates. Sorry for trampling on your work @deego

As fo editing out of zone. The Eye of Sauron, I mean @Dror has seen this and is displeased and puzzled. I've checked that a baby waxed canfrom New Zealand can edit roads in Canada. I shall do more testing after my xxxxxxx in Berlin, Paris and England. This may be some sort of fault.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:47 pm

deeggo wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:That's a very good question. It should have worked as it stood. Let's get Waze staff to look at it before the livemap updates. Sorry for trampling on your work @deego

No prob, I'm just not amused that maps that were fine before go wrong now. I think it has happened before the last weeks with other locations in my neighbourhood. I've repaired all that, thinking I must have missed it before or maybe another user or the server had changed things. But of this specific location I'm sure.


Well I can add this. In the last week, Waze has changed the routing instructions. So at a roundabout where it used to be "take the 1st exit", "take the 2nd exit" and "take the 3rd exit" it is now (and correctly) "turn left", "go straight through" and "turn right". What I find particularly interesting is that the "go straight through" is on to a road with a different name. I'm speculating that this change has also meant driving instructions stopped working correctly at this fork - Waze's new algorithm approximates both directions as straight through, and ignores the change in road name. I'm going to email Waze.

While you're listening @Deego, on 21 October you edited this road:
http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=3 ... 1=89629515

which annoyed me intensely, because it was the focus of attention by Waze support for a routing bug, and I'd asked people not to edit it. :roll: Can you remember what changes you made?

And note that I've made another change to it now for testing purposes - it won't affect routing - please don't edit it in the meantime. Please. It will all be discussed here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6077

deeggo wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:As fo editing out of zone. The Eye of Sauron, I mean @Dror has seen this and is displeased and puzzled. I've checked that a baby waxed canfrom New Zealand can edit roads in Canada. I shall do more testing after my xxxxxxx in Berlin, Paris and England. This may be some sort of fault.

I look forward to hearing what´s happening here. Imho, in general, the situation where you would have to have been somewhere to be able to edit there was there for good reasons.


The Nazgul are in pursuit, and it appears to be a fault in my account. I'm sure it will be rectified soon. I don't mind. I can't accurately document using Waze if my account is not normal.
Last edited by waynemcdougall on Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:23 pm

Copy of email sent:

Dear Waze

The spoken instructions have recently stopped working at a junction. It is *not* due to a map edit.

This route: http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=7&l ... &to_seg=-1
and this route: http://world.waze.com/livemap/?zoom=7&l ... g=89636330
both pass through the same fork, but neither will give instructions to "keep left" or "keep right" at the junction. In fact there are no instructions at this junction at all: http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=5 ... 1=96439240

Please note that the map has been edited to try and force spoken instructions *but it used to work*. The Livemap and client phones still show the lack of instructions when going through this fork, so you can check it out before the next Livemap update.

You may wish to note that this change (ie the lack of instructions at this junction) seems to have coincided with Waze changing routing instructions. I have noticed that at a roundabout where it used to be "take the 1st exit", "take the 2nd exit" and "take the 3rd exit" it is now (and correctly) "turn left", "go straight through" and "turn right". What I find particularly interesting is that the "go straight through" is on to a road with a different name. I'm speculating that this change has also meant driving instructions stopped working correctly at this fork - perhaps Waze's new algorithm approximates both directions as straight through, and ignores the change in road name.

I'd suggest that a change in road name should always generate a driving instruction (although perhaps not in the case where there are no alternative directions - where a road simply changes its name).

But this case is important - a major freeway ramp, two alternatives - we shouldn't need magic map editing to force it to work, *especially as it was working before*.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards

Wayne McDougall
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