Missing prompts

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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:31 am

deeggo wrote: I have been annoyed for a long time by a oval shaped roundabout in my region, that triggers a continue straight for both continuing straight (which is the 2nd exit) and turning left (which is the 3rd exit). Support couldn't get it right either. Imho it is clear that the server cannot always properly tell what is straight and what not. So better not use that then.


1. You have beautiful roads. And a beautiful map.
2. I notice there are little kinks in the connections of the roads to the roundabout. Not that that is the cause, but I'm curious about why they are there. Can I learn something?
3. Not that you needed confirming, but yes I confirm the same problem.
4. No wonder you are annoyed. It is totally unacceptable to get wrong verbal instructions.
5. I'd guess that it is the angle of arrival and departure. A long thin roundabout - but that design must be standard. Are there other roundabouts in this shape that work correctly? That you can point me at?
6. BUT I don't get straight through instructions here: http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... =101183984
Rather it's take the 2nd exit going from SW to NE or NE to SW
7. But man other places work fine, such as here:
http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... 1=84320144
8. I do think continue straight and turn left and turn right at roundabout are better for people to understand, especially in places where nearly all the roundabouts are simple. But it has to work for all cases!
9. One way would not be to make it a roundabout at all. Just roads that are in an oval shape. But would drivers consider it to be a roundabout, and expect at the nth exit?
10. On review I think it is the angle of the relative locations of the entrances and the exits - it's probably too complex to look at the angle of the departing road segment, which will change.
11. My suggestion would be if the distance is more than 40m to switch to nth exit prompts. That should be easy to implement.
12. What is the current status of your discussions with Waze HQ support?
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby deeggo » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:47 pm

waynemcdougall wrote:1. You have beautiful roads. And a beautiful map.

Thanks!
2. I notice there are little kinks in the connections of the roads to the roundabout. Not that that is the cause, but I'm curious about why they are there. Can I learn something?
They were an experiment. Another user suggested that a exiting road perpendicular to the roundabout roads might solve it. Obviously it didn't.
3. Not that you needed confirming, but yes I confirm the same problem.
:mrgreen:
4. No wonder you are annoyed. It is totally unacceptable to get wrong verbal instructions.
I agree. You can watch the map on your device and see where to go. However, I want the instructions to be right AND I want to understand how it works and why it doesn't in this case. I'm a precisian :geek:
5. I'd guess that it is the angle of arrival and departure. A long thin roundabout - but that design must be standard. Are there other roundabouts in this shape that work correctly? That you can point me at?
I know of no similar roundabouts at all, unfortunately.
6. BUT I don't get straight through instructions here: http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... =101183984
Rather it's take the 2nd exit going from SW to NE or NE to SW
Indeed, that's a 'simple' roundabout. I have dozens of those in my region. They never were any trouble. Come to think of it, one day they all were! One day some time ago - can't remember the date - all simple roundabouts suddenly used the keep right/left continue straight format. 15 minutes later upon restarting Waze for my short trip back home they were all fine again. I reported it with support, but they never found out what caused this temporary glitch. But that has nothing to do with this specific roundabout.
7. But man other places work fine, such as here:
http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=7 ... 1=84320144
That roundabout is very straight forwards too.
8. I do think continue straight and turn left and turn right at roundabout are better for people to understand, especially in places where nearly all the roundabouts are simple. But it has to work for all cases!
I agree, but in NL, many 'simple' roundabouts connecting 4 roads can even be a bit tricky, as the angles between the exits may be far from 90 degrees. So, continue straight may actually be 'keeping a bit left', if you get what I mean. But enough about my preference. Either way, the system has to do it right, but we agree on this.
9. One way would not be to make it a roundabout at all. Just roads that are in an oval shape. But would drivers consider it to be a roundabout, and expect at the nth exit?
It formally is a roundabout. The traffic signs say so. Furthermore, the distance between the 2nd and 3rd exit in this case is so small, that only a "Turn right" wouldn't be enough. The turn right for the 3rd exit would be heard upon passing the 2nd exit, causing people to quickly take that exit.
10. On review I think it is the angle of the relative locations of the entrances and the exits - it's probably too complex to look at the angle of the departing road segment, which will change.
Support had a story about the angles of the lines that go to the exits from the roundabout centre node. Those angles should be important (see the image in my previous post). However, changing the location of the centre node - I even placed it outside of the roundabout to try - didn't help.
11. My suggestion would be if the distance is more than 40m to switch to nth exit prompts. That should be easy to implement.
I think it should be dependent of the diameter. A hypothetical roundabout with a diameter of 10m with ten exits has 6m per exit. Maybe the angle is a better approach. Then it should say if the angle between exits is smaller than X then switch to nth exits prompts.
12. What is the current status of your discussions with Waze HQ support?
Support more or less gave up, because they didn't know what the actual mechanism is. That surprised me. Their colleagues made it.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby waynemcdougall » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:59 pm

deeggo wrote:
waynemcdougall wrote:4. No wonder you are annoyed. It is totally unacceptable to get wrong verbal instructions.
I agree. You can watch the map on your device and see where to go. However, I want the instructions to be right AND I want to understand how it works and why it doesn't in this case. I'm a precisian :geek:


It's not merely about precision (although that is important). I never watch the map on my device. It's not safe to do so. (IMO, and certainly in my car). And I'd never glance down when approaching a large complicated (to me) roundabout. And I'd trust straight through, as it is very clear.

So it needs to be fixed because it is wrong and dangerous. It's not about you being precise.

deeggo wrote:in NL, many 'simple' roundabouts connecting 4 roads can even be a bit tricky, as the angles between the exits may be far from 90 degrees. So, continue straight may actually be 'keeping a bit left', if you get what I mean. But enough about my preference. Either way, the system has to do it right, but we agree on this.


Yes, I understand. I don't mind if it is a bit to the left. but major differences shouldn't be straight ahead. I'd be interested in seeing any other even 'simple' ones that you think are wrong.

Don't undersell yourself. Your preferences seem entirely reasonable. I think at a + or near + roundabout, left, right or straight through is ok(better IMO). Anything wonky and Waze inbstructions need to play it safe.

deeggo wrote:
9. One way would not be to make it a roundabout at all. Just roads that are in an oval shape. But would drivers consider it to be a roundabout, and expect at the nth exit?
It formally is a roundabout. The traffic signs say so. Furthermore, the distance between the 2nd and 3rd exit in this case is so small, that only a "Turn right" wouldn't be enough. The turn right for the 3rd exit would be heard upon passing the 2nd exit, causing people to quickly take that exit.


Good. That's what I thought. In future, we will get a "and then" for instruction that quickly follow each other. But regardless, this should clearly be a roundabout with working roundabout instructions.

deeggo wrote:
11. My suggestion would be if the distance is more than 40m to switch to nth exit prompts. That should be easy to implement.
I think it should be dependent of the diameter. A hypothetical roundabout with a diameter of 10m with ten exits has 6m per exit. Maybe the angle is a better approach. Then it should say if the angle between exits is smaller than X then switch to nth exits prompts.


I think we'll see if my suggestion will work. :-) Because it can take existing data from routing server. Whereas your suggestion requires a lot of information and calculations in surrounding areas. Think about the implementation.

See at that roundabout, I'd be happy if it said (turn right at the aroundabout) for the first exit and (take the second exit) and (take the third exit) for the next two.

It just may easier to put an override on.

I thought about just going by size, but I've seen bigger roundabouts that are still just large +

12. What is the current status of your discussions with Waze HQ support?
Support more or less gave up, because they didn't know what the actual mechanism is. That surprised me. Their colleagues made it.[/quote]

A support person isn't going to be a programmer. And programmers shouldn't waste time on support.

That's why it is so important to carefully prepare a case and argument that you pass on to support who can almost just flick it on to the programming development team who can look at it and understand it.

OK, well I'm not going to give up on this until there is an answer. I think I shall recreate this roundabout in the middle of the ocean and find out what the limits are. That is going to take a long time (weeks or months), as I need to wait for the Livemap updates to check the routing. But I won't give up.

Conversely, if it does start working for you, please don't post in this forum topic, along with any other comments or helpful references. Or you can PM me if you prefer.
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Re: Missing prompts

Postby deeggo » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:55 pm

waynemcdougall wrote:Yes, I understand. I don't mind if it is a bit to the left. but major differences shouldn't be straight ahead. I'd be interested in seeing any other even 'simple' ones that you think are wrong.

At the moment, there aren't any. That's because all the simple ones use the nth exit prompts. No errors possible there. However, IF one day Waze implements keep left/right prompts for all roundabouts, then these may become unclear.

waynemcdougall wrote:I think we'll see if my suggestion will work. :-) Because it can take existing data from routing server. Whereas your suggestion requires a lot of information and calculations in surrounding areas. Think about the implementation.

My suggestion was to use the angles. As Dror wrote, the server is already using some angles in its determination of the prompt. It's not doing it right though and he doesn't really know why. So this approach isn't totally new. But I don't mind what they'll implement of course, if it works.

waynemcdougall wrote:See at that roundabout, I'd be happy if it said (turn right at the aroundabout) for the first exit and (take the second exit) and (take the third exit) for the next two.

Sound fine!

waynemcdougall wrote:A support person isn't going to be a programmer. And programmers shouldn't waste time on support.

That's why it is so important to carefully prepare a case and argument that you pass on to support who can almost just flick it on to the programming development team who can look at it and understand it.

OK, well I'm not going to give up on this until there is an answer. I think I shall recreate this roundabout in the middle of the ocean and find out what the limits are. That is going to take a long time (weeks or months), as I need to wait for the Livemap updates to check the routing. But I won't give up.
Take your time ;) It's been like this since the beginning of the basemap. I hope you can tackle it!

waynemcdougall wrote:Conversely, if it does start working for you, please don't post in this forum topic, along with any other comments or helpful references. Or you can PM me if you prefer.
I guess you mean "don't forget to post in this topic"?
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