Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

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Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:17 pm

I would like to see "2-way ramp" removed from the error list for US.
Last edited by Timbones on Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Split posts from: [Script] WME Validator 0.7.1 (BETA) / 20.02.2014
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Touché, but my point is that in practice "simple" is often confused with "simplistic". Don't add "unnecessary complexity," emphasis mine. The definition that says "split roads are bad, k?" is really, overall, a simplistic vision of what the map should look like without regard for performance.

That's more of a general point, anyway. In this case I'm not really sure what definition of "simple" is being used here. If it's an application of "split roads are bad, k?", then, okay, and while it doesn't have the same problems as with most divided roadways represented as a single line (misleading destination announcement, etc.), it's still a bit obtuse. If the definition is "fewer things on the map," well, you've removed one segment and doubled another, and removed two nodes and created one, so the net result is only one node fewer than there was before, same number of segments.

I'm sorry to make such an example of this particular interchange, and I want to be clear that I don't believe this is specific to this one example. But many of us often let Simplicity get in the way of other things, particularly the big, bold Usability and the big, bold Retention. And that's a mistake.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby GooberKing » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:57 am

sketch wrote:There's also the fact that Waze 4.x shows the name of the current road on screen, and that can be potentially quite confusing for someone on the second half of that ramp, thinking, "Wait, I just got off SR-68!?"


Well, as I'm on Android and have yet to experience the glory of 4.x, I was not aware of that. As others have said, that certainly does change things, so I can change it back if you feel that will become an issue.

As far as simplicity vs simple to understand, if you go by the wiki, then Simplicity is actually the secondary goal, not necessarily making it simple for newer editors. There are plenty of cases where the "simple to understand" solution would make things overly complex (see: Parking Lots), so you gotta find a happy medium somewhere.

Obviously, it would be great if map editing were simple to understand, but you and I both know that's not the case, which is why we have all these rules in the first place. If anything, I would hope situations like this would cause newer editors to ask questions and learn more about how exactly their changes affect the map, thereby becoming better editors.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby voludu2 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:37 am

I just took a small detour today to check this.
I even switched to 2D mode for the occasion.

As I drove down the exit ramp, I saw a purple bubble with the text beginning with "to Lan" perhaps another couple of characters, an ellipses "..." And a few more characters at the end.

I was not able to get a screenshot.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:59 pm

CBenson wrote:So does it do it for ramps segments? That would be a significant change as we do generally edit with the idea that ramp names won't display on the client map. Kind of surprised there haven't been complaints.

It did as recently as a few weeks ago, and I believe it still does, though I can't say certainly right now. I did complain, but it seemed to fall mostly on deaf ears.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby voludu2 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm

I might take an alternate route today.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby CBenson » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:51 pm

voludu2 wrote:
sketch wrote:There's also the fact that Waze 4.x shows the name of the current road on screen,

There's something I actually haven't noticed while driving.

That would certainly lead to some different editing choices.

So does it do it for ramps segments? That would be a significant change as we do generally edit with the idea that ramp names won't display on the client map. Kind of surprised there haven't been complaints.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby voludu2 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:36 pm

sketch wrote:There's also the fact that Waze 4.x shows the name of the current road on screen,

There's something I actually haven't noticed while driving.

That would certainly lead to some different editing choices.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:16 pm

Sure, I understand that. There are different definitions of "hack", but I think a better one is "using nonstandard editing practices to accomplish something that standard editing practices cannot accomplish".

Here, maybe each way is somewhat of a "hack", considering that the former iteration of it used two parallel segments for an undivided roadway. But the other way at least looked normal, in such a way that there's no chance a passing editor would consider it some sort of mistake, and such that it didn't throw any Validator flags (not that that in particular is evidence of whether an edit is okay, but it does signal passing editors that something might be wrong, whether or not something is wrong).

There's also the fact that Waze 4.x shows the name of the current road on screen, and that can be potentially quite confusing for someone on the second half of that ramp, thinking, "Wait, I just got off SR-68!?"

My point, however, is that the amount of work that went into reconfiguring this interchange far exceeds the amount of work it would have been to maintain it in the previous configuration ("if it ain't broke, don't fix it"), especially when you have to start explaining it to every passing editor.

Simplifying the map is not an end in itself. Our goal is not to make the map "easier" to edit. We are here to make the app work the best it can with the map we have, and secondary to that is making the map understandable to other editors, not necessarily simple. In some respects, in some areas, the Waze map has been or was oversimplified for a long time, and that comes at the expense of ease of editing. Why do you think so many noobs have taken an undivided road and built them into divided roads? Because it's reality. Because it's not easy to understand why someone would draw a clearly divided roadway as a single segment. Because the editing rules that came about because of that are not as easy to fathom as they would be if the segments were simply drawn in ("why all these turn restrictions?!").

Why did we do it that way? This powerful spectre of "simplicity" that has haunted us for half a decade, making us edit the maps in ways that are more difficult to understand (against our secondary goal of making the map understandable to editors), forcing us to "reach our destinations" when we are still on the wrong side of the road (against our primary goal of making the app work well)...

Maybe this reconfiguration is marginally "simpler" (OK, two fewer nodes on the connected segments, though you still have the same number of ramps...), but it's more difficult for a passing editor to understand, and it has negative effects on navigation in the client (historical data is lost, plus confusing current road name display in 4.x). So, where does that leave it?
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby GooberKing » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:54 am

sketch wrote:I don't see any reason why this won't work, and I'm sure it's working fine. But it's also a bit of a hack, and in situations like this where the previous iteration was also likely working just fine and wasn't really any more difficult to maintain, well, all you're doing by reconfiguring it is losing a bunch of historical speed data.


Ehhh... To me, a "hack" is when you make the map more complex (and harder to maintain) in order to accommodate certain edge cases. This case is more about using unorthodox methods to simplify the map (by reducing geometry). Mostly just wanted to confirm that there's no technical limitations here, and it's just something that makes other editors feel squicky ;)
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