Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby SuperDave1426 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:45 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
SuperDave1426 wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I would like to see "2-way ramp" removed from the error list for US.

Why? Where in the US is a freeway ramp ever two-way? <puzzled look> :?:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... 79&env=usa


Thanks for the extra visual aid. :-)

There's no reason for that small area to be packed with two 1-way segments. Added complexity with no added value goes against the stated Waze Goals. Ramp segments like this are all over and will stay that way because there is no good reason not to.


No argument there - in both cases, the road structure itself suggests a two-way road on the map.

Question: In cases such as those, wouldn't it just make more sense to make them two-way streets until get to the point where it actually splits into on/off ramps attaching to the freeway? Is there a reason why that stretch of road segment must be type ramp?
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby SuperDave1426 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:41 pm

GizmoGuy411 wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I would like to see "2-way ramp" removed from the error list for US.


I agree. Like them or not they exist. I can't provide a PL at the moment, but look at I-75 Exit 14 Elm Ave in Monore Michigan for one example for both N and S sides.

Just painted lines. No physical divider even.


I found it. Here's your permalink.

And, wow. :-) Never seen 'em like that before. Ok, thanks for providing an example that answered my puzzled question. :D
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby SuperDave1426 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:21 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I would like to see "2-way ramp" removed from the error list for US.


Why? Where in the US is a freeway ramp ever two-way? <puzzled look> :?:
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Touché, but my point is that in practice "simple" is often confused with "simplistic". Don't add "unnecessary complexity," emphasis mine. The definition that says "split roads are bad, k?" is really, overall, a simplistic vision of what the map should look like without regard for performance.

That's more of a general point, anyway. In this case I'm not really sure what definition of "simple" is being used here. If it's an application of "split roads are bad, k?", then, okay, and while it doesn't have the same problems as with most divided roadways represented as a single line (misleading destination announcement, etc.), it's still a bit obtuse. If the definition is "fewer things on the map," well, you've removed one segment and doubled another, and removed two nodes and created one, so the net result is only one node fewer than there was before, same number of segments.

I'm sorry to make such an example of this particular interchange, and I want to be clear that I don't believe this is specific to this one example. But many of us often let Simplicity get in the way of other things, particularly the big, bold Usability and the big, bold Retention. And that's a mistake.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:59 pm

CBenson wrote:So does it do it for ramps segments? That would be a significant change as we do generally edit with the idea that ramp names won't display on the client map. Kind of surprised there haven't been complaints.

It did as recently as a few weeks ago, and I believe it still does, though I can't say certainly right now. I did complain, but it seemed to fall mostly on deaf ears.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:16 pm

Sure, I understand that. There are different definitions of "hack", but I think a better one is "using nonstandard editing practices to accomplish something that standard editing practices cannot accomplish".

Here, maybe each way is somewhat of a "hack", considering that the former iteration of it used two parallel segments for an undivided roadway. But the other way at least looked normal, in such a way that there's no chance a passing editor would consider it some sort of mistake, and such that it didn't throw any Validator flags (not that that in particular is evidence of whether an edit is okay, but it does signal passing editors that something might be wrong, whether or not something is wrong).

There's also the fact that Waze 4.x shows the name of the current road on screen, and that can be potentially quite confusing for someone on the second half of that ramp, thinking, "Wait, I just got off SR-68!?"

My point, however, is that the amount of work that went into reconfiguring this interchange far exceeds the amount of work it would have been to maintain it in the previous configuration ("if it ain't broke, don't fix it"), especially when you have to start explaining it to every passing editor.

Simplifying the map is not an end in itself. Our goal is not to make the map "easier" to edit. We are here to make the app work the best it can with the map we have, and secondary to that is making the map understandable to other editors, not necessarily simple. In some respects, in some areas, the Waze map has been or was oversimplified for a long time, and that comes at the expense of ease of editing. Why do you think so many noobs have taken an undivided road and built them into divided roads? Because it's reality. Because it's not easy to understand why someone would draw a clearly divided roadway as a single segment. Because the editing rules that came about because of that are not as easy to fathom as they would be if the segments were simply drawn in ("why all these turn restrictions?!").

Why did we do it that way? This powerful spectre of "simplicity" that has haunted us for half a decade, making us edit the maps in ways that are more difficult to understand (against our secondary goal of making the map understandable to editors), forcing us to "reach our destinations" when we are still on the wrong side of the road (against our primary goal of making the app work well)...

Maybe this reconfiguration is marginally "simpler" (OK, two fewer nodes on the connected segments, though you still have the same number of ramps...), but it's more difficult for a passing editor to understand, and it has negative effects on navigation in the client (historical data is lost, plus confusing current road name display in 4.x). So, where does that leave it?
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:00 pm

GooberKing wrote:To put a twist on this topic, we've come across an interesting situation in CT that I think would work better as a two-way ramp. This ramp is currently mapped as two one-way ramps, despite the road not meeting requirements for a split road. I'm proposing we redo this as a two-way ramp, but make it with two connected segments: One named "to SR-68" and connected to N Colony Rd, and the other named "to US-5 / to SR-15" connected to Church St.

I think this would make the road look better on the map and make it easier to maintain, as it reduces segments and geometry nodes. I realize Validator will get an aneurysm over it, but is there any technical reason why this would not work? Or is this just one of those "That's just not how things are done" situations?

I don't see any reason why this won't work, and I'm sure it's working fine. But it's also a bit of a hack, and in situations like this where the previous iteration was also likely working just fine and wasn't really any more difficult to maintain, well, all you're doing by reconfiguring it is losing a bunch of historical speed data.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:47 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:It shows a stay left in livemap instructions.

In which direction, westbound? Because Jason increased the angle to the current one while they were still ramps, tested it, and it still didn't give the "stay left" instruction. I tested it too, I think.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby sketch » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:17 pm

Could you point me to an example of a place where this might be/would be/has been a problem? Not that I don't believe you, I just can't picture a situation where it could be.

I have seen problems with ramps leaving out important instructions, but it hasn't been with two-way ramps. Look at the UR here, keeping in mind that the two selected segments were Ramp type when I left it: https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-90.05 ... 6,57649175

Notice the lack of the "keep left" instruction onto the freeway.
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.7.1 (BETA) / 20.02.2014

Postby sketch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:03 am

dbraughlr wrote:What basis do you have to suspect that my understanding might be wrong?

Four and a half years on Waze and its forums have given me a pretty good understanding of how it all works.

An unsubstantiated rumor is not a substantial basis for a Validator warning.
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