Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby dbraughlr » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:12 am

If would be fine for an administrator to break out the various diversions into a separate thread.
Last edited by dbraughlr on Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: parallel paths to the same endpoints

Postby dbraughlr » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:36 pm

bobthedog007 wrote:There is a road that passes a fast food drive through and a small loop around the building for the actual drive through, causing the same endpoints problem.

That actually explains a lot. Waze avoids routing you in a way that bring you back to the same junction going in the same direction. Apparently, the bug is that when it reroutes you, it includes the junction that you already traversed (or that is the other endpoint of the segment that you are on); it shouldn't. But because it does, you cannot be routed around a loop.
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby GizmoGuy411 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:31 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:I would like to see "2-way ramp" removed from the error list for US.


I agree. Like them or not they exist. I can't provide a PL at the moment, but look at I-75 Exit 14 Elm Ave in Monore Michigan for one example for both N and S sides.

Just painted lines. No physical divider even.
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby GizmoGuy411 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:54 pm

Around me, ramps have small highway maintenance signs that define them as ramps. If there sole purpose is to serve the freeway, and there is no local name implying that is a street, then I would call it a ramp.


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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby sketch » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:29 pm

SuperDave1426 wrote:Well, substitute "Primary Street/Minor Highway/etc" where I said "street" in my original question, then. :-)

Yea, ramp looks good given what it's leading up to; I get what you're saying there. However, in the grand scheme of things, what I saw in those examples look to me like a road leading up to the actual ramps going on/off the freeway and is not actually part of the ramp itself.

Having the validator not highlight a two-way ramp just because of the examples that I've seen so far seems like a good way of increasing the chances of someone missing a two-way ramp that actually shouldn't be two-way, without actually providing any real benefit.

A minor or major highway used in these cases would look quite bad in the client, especially in night mode.

Making editing slightly easier is not a valid excuse for making such a change to the map. Perhaps "name on two-way ramp" would be valid as a Note, and that would do a better job of showing two-way ramp segments that were actually set that way accidentally.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby sketch » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:32 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
dbraughlr wrote:When the on-ramp is restricted (closed), will Waze route the wrong way for a short distance over the off ramp to reach the highway?

In any situation like that, there is always the possibility that the routing server will incorrectly (and dangerously) select routing against a 1-way segment, through turn restrictions, etc. That's an unfortunate byproduct of the way the "penalty"-based system it uses. Nothing is impossible.

But is the penalty based on segment length at all? From what I understand, penalties are assessed on transition, not along a segment. It seems dbraughlr's worries are founded in a misunderstanding of the penalty system (or, I might be wrong).

SuperDave1426 wrote:I agree with dbraughlr - I really think this should be looked into more fully before making a change to the ramp direction check.

We've been using two-way ramp segments for years without incident. The inclusion as a check may comport with INTL rules and practice for ramps, but they do not comport with ours.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby sketch » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:59 pm

dbraughlr wrote:People say that the "same endpoints" error is real. I am on the side of excluding the validation until it is shown that it is a still real problem, especially since the solution seem to be to insert an unneeded node node that will have to be removed after the bug is solved.

It is a bug known to many. There have been multiple threads about it. I can't find them because they were started without an understanding of why Waze was giving such bizarre routes (because we figured it out using those threads). I'm trying to find them now, but I don't know if I will. If you're not willing to take a few champs' words for it, I don't know what else to tell you.

As for sketch's comments: I didn't start the rumor; so to suggest that it is based on my misunderstanding is entirely your misunderstanding. I'm just the messenger. You'll have to do your homework if you want to chide the originator of the rumor.

All I'm saying is that your understanding of the penalty system may be wrong. Mis-understanding. I didn't blame you for it.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby sketch » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:42 pm

CBenson wrote:I'm not sure what "the error" is. Seem to mostly be a display problem with the routes shown in URs as discussed for example here and here. It may actually effect the user when the endpoint of the route is on one of the two segments that connects the same two junctions.

It's more than just a display bug. I can't find it, but I remember a thread a few months ago about a one-segment road side parking area. The user in that case got an incorrect turn instruction.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby sketch » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:49 pm

CBenson wrote:I'm not sure what "the error" is. Seem to mostly be a display problem with the routes shown in URs as discussed for example here and here. It may actually effect the user when the endpoint of the route is on one of the two segments that connects the same two junctions.

Your post, the second post, in the first thread you linked shows a user that followed the "display bug" route rather than the TTS route. I don't think it's reasonable to consider something as important as the route line being displayed incorrectly is so minor as to be considered merely a "display bug". Especially when the user isn't using sound. Is the user more likely to follow the arrow in the corner, or the route line on the screen?
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.7.1 (BETA) / 20.02.2014

Postby sketch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:03 am

dbraughlr wrote:What basis do you have to suspect that my understanding might be wrong?

Four and a half years on Waze and its forums have given me a pretty good understanding of how it all works.

An unsubstantiated rumor is not a substantial basis for a Validator warning.
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