Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

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Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby wxmeddler » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:39 pm

GeoApophis and I were having a discussion in an UR I created about the Road type classification of Dakota Dr. in Fargo from University to 12th Ave Bridge. Copied below is the discussion so far:

wxmeddler wrote:This section of Dakota Drive has incorrect turning options on both end points. All turns are allowed on alley and 18th st. Also, ALL of Dakota drive (from University to 12ave bridge) does NOT meet the classification of "minor highway". It has street parking thus ALL of Dakota dr. must be typed as street OR primary street. I suggest primary street.
(To note: I was wrong about the street parking criteria, that's just one that was used as a default no-no back home in MD)

GeoApophis wrote:Turning restrictions have been fixed. In regards to the classification, two different maps were used. City of Fargo. http://media.cityoffargo.com/maps/Engineering/Traffic/FunclStop.pdf and NDDOT: https://www.dot.nd.gov/road-map/urban-maps/urban-functional-class-maps/func_cl_fargo3_08.pdf
Both show it as a Minor Arterial which in ND is to be classified as Minor Highway. If you have differing documentation, I'd gladly review. Thanks for the report!


wxmeddler wrote:Hi Geo, Thanks for fixing the turns. The reasoning for the suggestion was due to the Waze road types style guide: (https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Road_types/USA#Minor_Highway) . Dakota Dr is not listed under US Fed. Hwy. Admin maps (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/national_highway_system/nhs_maps/north_dakota/fargo_nd.pdf) and is not a signed (ex. Co. Rd X) or numbered route as defined by the style guide. Additionally, Dakota Dr. is a residential street with homes and apartments; in alignment with this the speed limit for Dakota Dr. is 25 mph (http://www.cityoffargo.com/attachments/7a54d675-7b5e-483a-b012-457f574356ff/SPEEDLIMITS.pdf). To me, it doesn't seem ethically right from a routing standpoint to categorize Dakota Dr. as a "minor highway" with a speed limit of 25mph and in a residential setting with children etc.


GeoApophis wrote:It's true that Dakota Dr. is not listed under US Fed Hwy Admin maps, but that's for the highway system. We need to look at this from the urban level (Public roads section in the Wiki Road Type), where Dakota Dr. does function as a Minor Arterial, interconnecting and augmenting the higher arterial system (see http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/processes/statewide/related/highway_functional_classifications/fcauab.pdf sec 3.1.4) The Waze wiki states, for public roads "a locally maintained road...that is classified as an other arterial (Waze: at least minor highway) would be classified in Waze as a Minor Highway." To note, the classification terms don't necessarily specify speeds. The terms are determined by a host of attributes that aren't physical (efficiency, usage, continuity, etc). More detail here:
https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Road_types/U ... sification
Last edited by wxmeddler on Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo

Postby wxmeddler » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:56 pm

Geo,

In looking at the FHWA link you posted, I want to mention two things. First is that there is a relationship between speedlimits (Dakota Dr. is posted at 25mph) and functional classification. If you look at the document you posted (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/processes/statewide/related/highway_functional_classifications/fcauab.pdf) (in section 2.3 under speed limits) it states that :
: In general, there is a relationship between posted speed limits and
functional classification. Arterials typically have higher posted speed limits as
vehicles encounter few or no at-grade intersections. The absence of cross-traffic
and driveways allows for higher rates of speed, which provides mobility, especially
for long-distance travel...


Secondly, if you look at section 3.1.4 (table 3.2) you see that one of the characteristics of "minor aterials in urban areas" is
Provide more land access than Principal Arterials without penetrating identifiable neighborhoods
. Since Dakota dr. penetrates the Roosevelt neighborhood and is lined with apartments and homes, I believe this disqualifies it from being a major arterial.

To wit, I know that you are just following the Fargo maps and I hate to be picky on this but I live in this neighborhood and I got hit by a car while on my bike on Dakota dr. last fall because of someone going too fast. It needs to be downgraded. After seeing the Fargo maps, I have also contacted the City to see if I can get the road re-classified.
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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby GeoApophis » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:52 pm

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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby Fredo-p » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:15 pm

Regarding FHWA and its definitions on functional classification and how it applies to roadways, this is at the national level. The FHWA has given/allowed State (DOT) and local municipalities to handle non-highways and freeways at their discretion. This means that NDDOT and its towns/cities can classify each road how they feel is necessary.

When looking at functional classification in ND and in the cities, you must first understand how DOT and the cities define the classification type. Do not pay any attention to the actual road type in waze. It tends to confuse many.

What the city of Fargo has classified as principal/minor arterials and collectors is based on the capacity of the road (how many cars it can handle), the number of intersections, speed, and length of the road. The classification also shows where the city prefers to have its traffic flow through.

We follow what NDDOT and the available maps show regarding classification. If Fargo labeled a road as minor arterial, then it will be classified as such. That means that Fargo felt that this road was necessary to be classified as a minor arterial because it met the criteria or for future upgrades.

Many states, during the implementation phase of FC, had the same issue. The main problem that arose was that some editors would focus on the name of the waze road type (major/minor highway, primary street) and use that as the basis for what should and shouldn't be used. That is why the FC table was made. Since each state has different use of classification, individual FC conversion tables were made for states that wished to deviate from the standard list. That is what ND did. You can see that table here.
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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby wxmeddler » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:34 am

Fredo,

Thanks for responding and clarifying. This sentence here is at the crux of the issue.
Fredo-p wrote:We follow what NDDOT and the available maps show regarding classification. If Fargo labeled a road as minor arterial, then it will be classified as such.

Both NDDOT and Fargo have their own maps AND they result in a different classification when matched with the ND Wiki FC table. (see below).

Here is the NDDOT Map of Fargo: Dakota Dr in the green (FC: Urban Road) creating the hypotenuse between 81 and 294.
WazeDakotaNDDOT_FC.PNG
(171.94 KiB) Downloaded 404 times



And Fargo Streets Dept Map: (FC: Minor Arterial)
WazeDakotaFargoCity_FC.PNG
(183.5 KiB) Downloaded 407 times



So looking at the the ND Waze classification on the wiki, we get two different by-products for the same streets (and other streets as well).
WazeDakotaNDDOT_Wiki.PNG
(29.82 KiB) Downloaded 406 times



Which one exactly in this case should we use? The NDDOT map or the Fargo Streets map?
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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby wxmeddler » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:16 pm

Bumping thus since this is still an open issue. Thanks in advance for any information for clarifying the issue the above post addresses.
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Re: Dakota Dr. (University to 12th Ave), Fargo FC Debate

Postby triage685 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:26 pm

I believe you have the references a little confused. The state map can be found at http://www.dot.nd.gov/road-map/urban-ma ... go3_08.pdf and the "urban" map is also published by ND and can be found at http://www.dot.nd.gov/road-map/urban-ma ... o_3_08.pdf . These links are conflicting as they stand now, but the more recent map is showing as a "Minor Arterial" and therefore a Minor Highway. I would suggest leaving the roads this way until we receive further guidance from a SM or RC.
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