County Road Naming

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Re: County Road Naming

Postby Riamus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:39 pm

What do you mean by difficult to locate? I have an entire list of the County Highways for Michigan including where they extend to. There are some questions about how far some really extend due to lack of signage, but most are known and even if it's a little short of the official length, the majority of even those ones are known for certain. And I'm not sure why difficulty in locating them would relate to whether or not they are Minor Highways?

Any of the roads marked with a letter and number in the range of A* to H* (skipping E*) are designated as County Highways. There are also County Roads that are written as County Road followed by a number (I believe all are 3 digits, but I'm not positive on that). The county highway system was meant to provide designated roads between counties that can handle larger amounts of traffic than the typical side roads you have everywhere else. Of course, in most cases, the quality of the road is the same for side streets, county highways, and state highways. Still, those were designated as county highways to provide good traffic flow between counties. I think the fact that the state highways are usually not any better than side roads is why some or perhaps all are listed as Minor Highway instead of Major Highway.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby robc007 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:05 am

Riamus wrote:However, are you certain that West Lincoln Avenue in Cheboygan should be something other than a Street?


Fixed. I wasn't sure about that. WME automatically selected all of Riggsville Rd and I had to either extend it or back it out. :)

Riamus wrote:the County Highways (these are actual county highways rather than county roads) should be listed as Minor Highways.


I have mixed feelings about this. In my experience, the county highways are difficult to locate without local knowledge or GPS assistance. I hope we can get another opinion. sketch?
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby Riamus » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:25 am

Thanks for extending them. I was getting other things worked on before asking for someone to do that. However, are you certain that West Lincoln Avenue in Cheboygan should be something other than a Street? It's not a county road and isn't a main road either. Anyone from Cheboygan who wants to get to Pellston is going to go down to West VWF Road except in fairly uncommon circumstances, such as living off on the side there.

Regarding being Primary or Minor, a Minor Highway is:

Wiki wrote:While still a labeled route that can be followed to get from one city/town/neighborhood to another, routing of thru traffic is not always a priority in the street design.


And a primary street is:

Wiki wrote:Major roads or boulevards used to get across a neighborhood or city.


From those, Minor Highway would be correct. It is a labeled route (perhaps not always well labeled in Michigan, but it's still a labeled route) and it's between towns or cities (actually, it's between counties, but it goes to cities/towns). It is not a main road through an individual town or city. Yes, a primary street states that "in some regions county roads are primary streets", but that's a "maybe" rather than an "always". Primary streets are meant to be through a town, in my opinion. Not across the state. Maybe the "County Road XXX" ones can be primary streets, but the County Highways (these are actual county highways rather than county roads) should be listed as Minor Highways.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby robc007 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:01 am

sketch wrote:That was originally how we did it here in Louisiana, but since there is no real functional difference between major and minor highways, we decided to make US highways Major and Louisiana highways Minor, essentially for display purposes.


I think MDOT has always been more in line with the "functional" depiction. On the State road map, freeways are blue, highways are red, and county routes are black. On the State website, freeways are blue, highways are orange, major roads are yellow, and minor roads are white.

Not that we have to mimic MDOT, but it's what I'm used to seeing around here.

The Waze app, on the other hand, renders major highways and freeways the same, which is a bit confusing when one is a nice big Interstate and the other is merely a surface "pass with care" road.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:50 am

robc007 wrote:I drove through Pellston this week and was able to extend some of the county routes for you.

Unless I'm mistaken, county routes are generally "Primary Street" and the state routes are generally "Minor Highway".

My impression is that the US routes should also be "Minor Highway" unless they are divided and limited access, etc. However, someone has made all of the US routes in northern Michigan into "Major Highway". This is something that I would like to make more consistent with southern Michigan, but my editing area isn't large enough to make any of those changes.

That was originally how we did it here in Louisiana, but since there is no real functional difference between major and minor highways, we decided to make US highways Major and Louisiana highways Minor, essentially for display purposes. These are minimums, so a more important state highway can be Major and, of course, a freeway in either system can be Freeway.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby robc007 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:43 am

I drove through Pellston this week and was able to extend some of the county routes for you.

Unless I'm mistaken, county routes are generally "Primary Street" and the state routes are generally "Minor Highway".

My impression is that the US routes should also be "Minor Highway" unless they are divided and limited access, etc. However, someone has made all of the US routes in northern Michigan into "Major Highway". This is something that I would like to make more consistent with southern Michigan, but my editing area isn't large enough to make any of those changes.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby robc007 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:22 pm

sketch wrote:Based on the signs, I would recommend "CR-B15" as the format.


Looks good to me.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby Riamus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:54 pm

CR-B15 would be my opinion as well. I'll see if anyone else responds or at least until I hear back from the regional coordinator before using that format to avoid having to change it later if something else is decided.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby sketch » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:46 pm

Based on the signs, I would recommend "CR-B15" as the format. There's no hyphen, and the sign says "County", and doesn't say "Highway". I think that's plenty clear enough.

TTS should say "County Road B Fifteen" for that.

Exits that share a milepost are designated with numbers, e.g., "Exit 235B". In my area, that's how they are displayed on the big green signs, and that's how they are on the Waze map as well: "Exit 235B: Canal St / Superdome". It is pronounced properly, as you might expect, "Exit Two Thirty-Five B, Canal Street, Superdome". I imagine it would work the same with the letter before the number, then.

Not sure about "PA-1", but I know that "LA-1" is prononuced as "L A One". As for the other letters, none of them stand for anything. Michigan smartly skips from D to F in their county road designations and stops before N, so we don't have to worry about any cardinal directions slipping into there.
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Re: County Road Naming

Postby Riamus » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:36 pm

Rather than just typing how they look, here is a listing of about a third of the county road signs in the state. The others are also on that site if you wanted to look, but basically you have A2 through H63. The signs include the county and the letter/number designation, when there is a sign at all (county road signage in Michigan is generally very poor). The state is divided into regions, where each region gets a letter A-H. Then, a number is attached to refer to the individual road.

As far as postal addresses, I tried looking at locations around some of the county roads and the addresses are all based on the road name rather than the county road number. This seems to be true even for many addresses along state roads, such as addresses on M-119 being using the street name of Lake Shore Dr. In almost all, or perhaps all, cases in Michigan, the county road designation is an alternate name and not the main name of the street, so there may not be any addresses that use the county road number. I can't easily verify that, though.

As far as the - between letter and number, I think it's fine for that to go. The signs don't have it, but any names given for the roads anywhere other than the signs uses it. That may just be for readability rather than being official, though. In any case, B15 is just as good for directions, both visual and verbal as B-15 and is probably slightly faster in the TTS because of the extra pause for the dash.

And I wasn't meaning every state should drop their naming conventions, but just that I think it helps to avoid confusion if they were all to use something like CR- or County Hwy in front of any county roads. It wouldn't matter how they label the roads (letters, numbers, letters and numbers, etc.) because it would still look and sound okay. I wasn't really expecting that to happen. It was just an idle comment. :)

There is also potential for the name to be read wrong if the letter is at the beginning of the street name. I'm not sure if the dash prevents that or not as I haven't tested it. What does it do for state roads? For example, if it's labeled just "PA-1", is that read "P.A. 1" or "Pennsylvania 1" or "Pa 1"? If it tries to convert PA to Pennsylvania, there could be potential for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, or H to be converted into something by the TTS as well, which would mess up the verbal directions. I don't know if that could be a problem today or could potentially become a problem later or if it will never be a problem. I just thought I'd mention it just in case. I believe if the letter is in the middle, it's treated differently, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

One thing we may need to also consider when naming these... There are roads in Michigan called County Road XXX that aren't county highways with the special signs. They are just regular roads with that label unless I am mistaken. I think the difference between them is perhaps a matter of whether they are inter-county or inner-county. The inter-county ones have the special signs. It may not matter and we could potentially call all of the CR-, but I don't have any experience directly with any of the roads labeled as County Road XXX. I only have direct experience with the ones I mentioned that have the A-H region designations.
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