Primary Street Discussion

Moderators: SkiDooGuy, GizmoGuy411

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:55 pm

sketch wrote:People living off Townline Rd in that subdivision use Townline to get to the nearest arterial highway. In fact, I would say looking at Cheboygan that the primary street type on S / N Western Ave should be extended up to Mackinaw Ave.


Towline Rd is sometimes even a faster route than M-27.

I'll extend that primary street a bit. It looks like most of the roads in that area have never been edited.
Level 3 Former Commuter
robc007
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:31 pm

Riamus wrote:All I ask is that some valid reason for each street is given as to why it needs to be a primary street.


You can make demands like that in the Map Maker community. It's never going to happen here. These are trivial edits.

Riamus wrote:I have not yet heard any reason why these streets are more important than the ones around them from a driver's perspective. I have given many reasons why some of these streets shouldn't be primary streets. I have not heard any response to those reasons or alternative reasons why they should be. Why not?


Sketch made an excellent effort to explain this to you. He doesn't deserve to be ignored like that.
Level 3 Former Commuter
robc007
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:35 pm

sketch wrote:So yes, almost every street in Northern Michigan should be primary.


Before we get carried away, there are some exceptions:

Dirt Roads
1-Lane Roads
Dead Ends, Driveways, and Private Roads
Parking Lots

It might be more accurate to say, most of the paved roads with no speed limit should be primary. Things like length, highway attachment, and MDOT class may not be definitive, but they do help to define the "collector" roads.
Level 3 Former Commuter
robc007
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Riamus wrote:And Levering Rd between Levering and Cheboygan, which is part of the Michigan County Highway system (note the word highway) would be dropped to a primary street by both of those examples, while the western side would be a minor highway. Can you explain the point in that?


You're confusing two different things here. Highway is not a functional classification. Just because the road is a highway doesn't mean it's an artery or vice versa.
Level 3 Former Commuter
robc007
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:33 am

I got routed on to an unfamiliar "primary street" today that wasn't paved in a thousand-foot stretch near the middle. Now that's not cool! :lol: Fixed the map as soon as I got home.
Level 3 Former Commuter
robc007
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:41 am

I can't speak for northern Michigan, because I haven't been north of Flint or Port Huron, but I can say that there is a severe lack of Primary Streets in the city of Detroit and perhaps its outlying areas as well. The bar for Primary Street is pretty low, but essentially anything that I would consider a "thru street" qualifies—certainly most streets with center dividing lines qualify, streets with few or no stop signs, streets that have lights instead of stop signs at intersections with major roads. Almost all streets with freeway on/off ramps qualify. I've upgraded a few, but there are a lot more to be done.

It's hard to make a cut and dry rule for primary streets, but it's hard to make a map without them. I think it's a good idea to use them for scenic alternate routes one might take if they don't mind a slower drive, like that bay side road may be.
ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
new orleans based • detroit enthusiast • usa country manager
2013 ford focus titanium hatchback 5mt • performance blue
Image Image
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1177 times
Been thanked: 1609 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:56 pm

I've looked around the area you describe. The types around there look about perfect.

The problem here is that you're trying to use the urban/suburban definition for primary streets in cases where it's more appropriate to use the rural definition -- primary streets are collectors that "feed" arterial minor highways, which themselves feed major highways like I-75.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_hierarchy#History

People living off Townline Rd in that subdivision use Townline to get to the nearest arterial highway. In fact, I would say looking at Cheboygan that the primary street type on S / N Western Ave should be extended up to Mackinaw Ave.

Another thing I think your theory is missing is that it states primary streets are to be used for "the main routes within a town or city" -- not just one main route.

And what if you want to go from Pellston to your friend's lake house on Mullett Lake just south of Mullett Burt Rd? Any route which only followed highways would take you completely out of the way. The best route is to take the highway over to E Burt Lake and down Mullett Burt. What's the alternative? Either Riggsville or 75 to whichever end of M-27? Why go so far out of the way?

---

https://editor-beta.waze.com/editor/?lo ... TTFTTTTFTT

Last week, I drove from Richmond to a lake house in St Clair. It's a completely due east route along 32 Mile, which is called Division Rd and then Fred W Moore Hwy. It's a 55 mile an hour speed limit pretty much the whole way. Check out the link above.

But Waze didn't give me that route. Waze told me to go up Gratiot all the way to Wadhams and then take Rattle Run, I think, all the way down. The alternative routes were similarly preposterous.

Why did it do that? Because the Division Rd portion of 32 Mile is not marked as a Primary Street.

---

I honestly don't understand why there's anything at all to lose by not making things primary streets. You've already conceded the map looks better with them. I've proven it works better with them. What's left? The language in the Wiki? That's certainly vague enough for either of our interpretations, so go with the one that works.
ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
new orleans based • detroit enthusiast • usa country manager
2013 ford focus titanium hatchback 5mt • performance blue
Image Image
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1177 times
Been thanked: 1609 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:07 pm

Here's a reason: the map looks like sh-t with no primary streets.
ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
new orleans based • detroit enthusiast • usa country manager
2013 ford focus titanium hatchback 5mt • performance blue
Image Image
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1177 times
Been thanked: 1609 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:02 pm

It looks better with streets. Most rural travel is above 50 mph, which is where Street segments disappear. If it looks "haphazard" it's because (1) the streets themselves are haphazard, or (2) we haven't designated enough primary streets.
ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
new orleans based • detroit enthusiast • usa country manager
2013 ford focus titanium hatchback 5mt • performance blue
Image Image
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1177 times
Been thanked: 1609 times

Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:24 pm

The way we "change the display of streets" is by making them primary streets. We aren't elevating the small residential streets in towns that intersect with highways or primary streets. We're elevating streets that deserve to be elevated because they are a higher class of road than those side streets.

So lets go to the Wiki:
"Major roads or boulevards used to get across a neighborhood or city."
Those houses along the bay or whatever are as close as you come to a "neighborhood" in rural terms. That road is used to get across that neighborhood.

"Usually given higher priority for right of way with traffic controls."
I'm sure those roads all fit this criterion.

"Primary streets may have less residential driveways."
Just a guideline, and not even one thats purported to fit all examples. "May", not "generally" or "usually".

"A town’s “Main Street,” if it is not a highway, is typically a primary street."
This says nothing to say that roads that aren't the "main street" can't be primary streets. To say so would be a logical fallacy. "All interstates are freeways" does not mean "if it's not an interstate, it can't be a freeway".

"In some regions “County Roads” are typically primary streets."
Same as above. County roads are primary streets, but so are other roads which aren't county roads.

"A primary designation is very relative to population and traffic densities. In the smallest rural town, a primary street may barely be wide enough for two cars heading opposite directions to pass each other."
Not much else to be said here.

"In dense urban areas primary streets may need to be a divided road with multiple lanes of traffic in each direction having traffic controls at every intersection."
Of course this doesn't apply.

--

Just cause we would be left with a lot of primary streets up there doesn't mean they aren't worthy of being primary streets. When there are fewer streets, proportionally more of the streets are going to be important.

And we don't necessarily want Street-type segments to show above 50 miles per hour. Their equivalents disappear at speed in many commercial GPS units, and they still look fine. Those segments become clutter at a certain zoom level. The long ones, though, that carry traffic more than a few blocks or so, are important.

I've been at this a long time. I helped create the road type standards, so I'm pretty sure I know what they mean.
ALL US EDITORS READ: New USA road type guidance
new orleans based • detroit enthusiast • usa country manager
2013 ford focus titanium hatchback 5mt • performance blue
Image Image
sketch
Waze Global Champs
Waze Global Champs
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Has thanked: 1177 times
Been thanked: 1609 times

PreviousNext

Return to Michigan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users